Singing? For Your Stuff (Edited By Packsaddle)

[mattman578]

Ok I as reading Bryan on Scouting and he says you should not make scout sing for there lost items he says it is a form of bulling and humiliation. I do not think so I think it is just a fun thing to help reinforce a lesson please let me know what you think?

 

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/04/21/singing-for-a-lost-item/

 

buy the way if I lose and item and you make me sing for it you will be more punished then me

 

 

 

[Trevorum]

Singing for your lost stuff CAN be a fun learning experience for all, if it is done right. However, it can just as easily be a humiliating experience for a young fellow, even if it was not meant to be. Best just not to take the chance. If you want to teach a fellow to keep track of his gear, there are better ways.

[BDPT00]

Units who do this think they do it the 'right way.'

[Gone]

Almost was afraid to come in to this thread given the title. I wanted to make sure I had a second adult with me.

 

Well, if you can't sing for your stuff because it is humiliating, why are some OA ceremonies asking ALL candidates to stand for tap out? After all the guys elected get tapped out the guys who didn't are left standing....IN FRONT OF HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE AT CAMPOREE!!!! Tell me THAT'S not humiliating?

 

So, I'll not worry too much about a kid singing for a lost canteen until BSA -- and Bryan -- stop the other BSA-sponsored humiliation that goes on at the district and council level. Please! 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Mozartbrau

[packsaddle]

I flipped the classroom on singing. When someone did something, forgot something, etc.....I was the one who would force the entire unit (or dining hall) to listen to ME sing some silly song standing on a chair. The only thing most of them knew was that SOMEONE must have forgotten something...or something like that. The beauty of it was that usually there were enough of them who were guilty that as I sang, nearly all of them were a little nervous, lol. It kept them wondering...I liked that.

"to sit in solemn silence in a dull, dark, dock,

in a pestilential prison with a life long lock,

awaiting the sensation of a short sharp shock,

from a cheap and chippy chopper on a big black block."

[packsaddle]

About that title edit. I was mostly seeing if I could do it. I'll put it back if Mattman wants me to.

[Rick_in_CA]

Ok I as reading Bryan on Scouting and he says you should not make scout sing for there lost items he says it is a form of bulling and humiliation. I do not think so I think it is just a fun thing to help reinforce a lesson please let me know what you think?

 

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/04/21/singing-for-a-lost-item/

 

buy the way if I lose and item and you make me sing for it you will be more punished then me

Bryan is completely right, it’s bullying!

 

I have never been part of a unit that did this, nor would I be. But I do remember seeing it in another unit once at summer camp when I was a scout. If you could see the young kid singing with tears running down his face, with all the other scouts grinning at his discomfort, there is no question it's bullying. I didn’t know why his was singing then (and I actually don’t really know today, I am assuming), but I do remember thinking “thank God I’m not in that unit!â€

 

I do have a friend that was a boy scout in a unit that did that when he was a boy (you had to sing “I’m a little tea potâ€). So, what happens? The popular kids quietly return items when their buddies loose something. But they "help" the younger and unpopular scouts "loose things†(i.e. steal things). Then they sit back and enjoy the show as their targets get humiliated for “misplacing†something. Officially sanctioned bullying no less! So the kids that usually end up singing for lost items tend to be the weak and unpopular. Wow, great learning environment. Great way to model Courteous, Kind and Helpful.

 

If you allow this, and don’t think this kind of thing is going on in your unit, then you are probably not paying attention.

 

Plus, what is the “lesson†being taught? If one of your scouts sees a man drop his wallet, what is the correct response? a) “Excuse me sir, but you dropped your wallet!†or b) “Hey mister! You dropped your wallet. Sing a song and I’ll give it back!� And if you don’t think that is the lesson this kind of thing teaches, you again are probably not paying attention.

 

I never understood this idea that behavior that would be considered rude or unacceptable when directed at a stranger is somehow fine when directed at our scouts. All scouts and scouters should be treating each other with kindness and respect. How is humiliating someone showing either?

[SSScout]

Rick-in-CA:    Amen, brother.    How are we to example mature, adult behavior, if not to help a Scout ?   If an item is misplaced  how do you think the Scout already feels?  Do we add to that?   Or do we quietly hand the boy his pocketknife and say "hey Tommy, is this yours?  Be more careful, eh?"  And when he says "thank you , Mr. SSScout."   we say "START SINGING BOY!!!"  No, we don't , we say "that's okay, I lost my knife once, too, but found it under my sleeping bag when I packed up. Yours was on the trail by the fire circle." 

 

Walk a mile in his moccasins.....

[MattR]

When I started as SM our scouts left their stuff all over camp. Summer camp was a nightmare. I could ask them till I was blue in the face to pick up their stuff, to no avail. My son's 6tth grade teacher would dance with kids that were doing something they weren't supposed to do so I figured why not. An 11 year old dancing around the room with his teacher. Talk about embarrassment. We do a Mexican hat dance for lost items. The scouts sing the song and the boy dances. Any scout that tells the spl they can't find something before we do the dancing will not have to dance. Any scout that is looking shy is accompanied by the SPL. Adults have to dance as well. It is all done for the fun of everyone. There is no judging or requirements. If a scout just stands there while everyone else sings that's fine as well. To the people that say this is hazing, it can also be looked at as learning to deal with a problem. It also teaches the other scouts how to treat someone that has a problem. The boys in my troop treat the scouts with problems in a kind and courteous way. They watch the scout that's dancing because they know it's embarrassing. There is absolutely no malicious, repeated behavior, that is required to be called bullying. Does anyone play cross sticks around the fire, or any of a number of games where the only rule is to figure out the rules? Are you telling me that's not embarrassing? That's worse because you have to solve the puzzle before you can tease the other scouts that haven't figured it out. If scouts get really frustrated with it someone will pull them aside and give them a hint. And what about smoke shifters and sky hooks? Now I can't send kids out looking for left handed blue metallic telescoping smoke shifters because someone thinks it's hazing. You watch how the scout reacts and if it's gone too far you stop it. And all the scouts see you do that and they learn something. It's not hazing, it's problem solving. Is it honestly any different than burning the pancakes? You made a mistake, you take your lumps, and you move on. That's life. There's a point where we have to stop protecting them, and letting an 11 year old do a 5 second dance for a lost item is a good stepping stone. Now imagine the 17 year old that did his Eagle project without first getting all the signatures and being told he has to do the whole thing again. Talk about lumps. Part of my job is to create problems for scouts and patrols to solve. Then I help them make good decisions about how to solve them. This is just a fun way to do that.

Edited April 24, 2015 by MattR

[Rick_in_CA]

When I started as SM our scouts left their stuff all over camp. Summer camp was a nightmare. I could ask them till I was blue in the face to pick up their stuff, to no avail. My son's 6tth grade teacher would dance with kids that were doing something they weren't supposed to do so I figured why not. An 11 year old dancing around the room with his teacher. Talk about embarrassment. We do a Mexican hat dance for lost items. The scouts sing the song and the boy dances. Any scout that tells the spl they can't find something before we do the dancing will not have to dance. Any scout that is looking shy is accompanied by the SPL. Adults have to dance as well. It is all done for the fun of everyone. There is no judging or requirements. If a scout just stands there while everyone else sings that's fine as well. To the people that say this is hazing, it can also be looked at as learning to deal with a problem. It also teaches the other scouts how to treat someone that has a problem. The boys in my troop treat the scouts with problems in a kind and courteous way. They watch the scout that's dancing because they know it's embarrassing. There is absolutely no malicious, repeated behavior, that is required to be called bullying.

Wow, I'm not sure where to start. So making them dance improved things so they don't leave things around the camp? I bet beating them with a stick would have worked to, but no one (including you) would think that was a good idea. "It is all done for the fun of everyone", everyone but the scout dancing. You said: "They watch the scout that's dancing because they know it's embarrassing" so this is fun at someone else's expense? So how is that not bullying? And how does this teach scouts "how to treat someone that has a problem"? I am at a complete loss there.

Does anyone play cross sticks around the fire, or any of a number of games where the only rule is to figure out the rules? Are you telling me that's not embarrassing? That's worse because you have to solve the puzzle before you can tease the other scouts that haven't figured it out. If scouts get really frustrated with it someone will pull them aside and give them a hint. And what about smoke shifters and sky hooks? Now I can't send kids out looking for left handed blue metallic telescoping smoke shifters because someone thinks it's hazing. You watch how the scout reacts and if it's gone too far you stop it. And all the scouts see you do that and they learn something. It's not hazing, it's problem solving.

"...because someone thinks it's hazing"? Um, because it is? Snipe hunts, and sending scouts out for smoke shifters teaches them what? That the authority figures that are supposed to be mentoring them and protecting them can't be trusted because they will lie to them, set them up and laugh at them? Good lesson.

Is it honestly any different than burning the pancakes? You made a mistake, you take your lumps, and you move on.

Yes it is different then burning the pancakes, unless after they burn the pancakes you also make them dance?

That's life. There's a point where we have to stop protecting them, and letting an 11 year old do a 5 second dance for a lost item is a good stepping stone. Now imagine the 17 year old that did his Eagle project without first getting all the signatures and being told he has to do the whole thing again. Talk about lumps. Part of my job is to create problems for scouts and patrols to solve. Then I help them make good decisions about how to solve them. This is just a fun way to do that.

So we need to encourage our scouts to treat each other poorly because that will toughen them up for real life? And once again, this is fun for who? The kid being embarrassed? Deceived? Laughed at? Because we all know how much fun those are. How is deceiving a scout (sending him on a snipe hunt) honest or truthful? How is deliberately embarrassing him courteous or kind?

Edited April 24, 2015 by Rick_in_CA

[fred johnson]

Rick_in_CA ... I totally agree with you.  You are dead on right.  

[Stosh]

I prefer the stick method.  I can't stand bad music.

 

[pargolf44067]

We used to make scouts (or adults) sing for their stuff if they left it behind, but we don't anymore.  However, at our summer camp, if you leave something behind in the dining hall (or various other things, like it's your birthday) you are supposed to "Kiss the Moose" or do some other similar thing to one of the other items hanging around the dining hall during a meal.  It is supposed to be all in good fun, but I have seen kids get really embarrassed about having to do that.  And this is a council run summer camp that does this.  So it sounds like there are inconsistencies on this topic across scouting, shocking I know!

[LeCastor]

I tend to collect lost items in my trunk after a trip and then put them on the table in the room where our Troop meets.  People can come up and see if they've lost anything and claim it.  Shaming Scouts or Scouters for losing the stuff has never even occurred to me.  Man, I can imagine me at 11 being made to sing for a lost sock.  I would have been a hot mess of tears and probably wouldn't have gone back to camp with that bunch of jerks ever again.   

[RememberSchiff]

Rather stunned that this still occurs. Try this singing punishment or tying to a tree or .... on a scout with learning disabilities and then shake your head wondering why the boy left scouts crying and his Mom hit you with a 2x4.