Two Pack Meetings Per Month ... Split By Age / Rank

[fred johnson]

Have any packs experimented with splitting pack meetings by rank ?  I ask because some pack meetings do fine as big events.  But our pack might grow where we would have 25+ Lions and Tigers and then another 25+ Wolves, Bears and Webelos.   

 

I am wondering if we have an opportunity because the maturity of Lions and Tigers is very different than that of Webelos.  As such, we might be able to do more as Webelos and have a more targetted presentation as Lions.  

 

Thoughts?  Has anyone experimented with this?

[Eagle94-A1]

Sorry I can't help, but I do have questions.

 

1) How is Lions working out for you?

 

2) What is the program like?

 

3) What are they allowed to do? Not Do?

 

4) How is retention?

[fred johnson]

1) How is Lions working out for you?   

 

Hit and miss AND MISS.  And my bias is I'd really like the Lion year to just go away.  IMHO, it does more damage than good.  It's too early.  Based on our three or four years ...

 

-----  SPLITTING THE CRITICAL MASS.   For a group of kids, you really only have one attempt to recruit a BIG NUMBER of them.   Once they've heard the pitch or they are past the first year of joining, you recruit few on the 2nd year.  Example --> Before Lions, what was the distribution of recruiting Tigers, Wolves, Bears and Webelos.  We'd get 10+ Tigers, 2 Wolves, 1 Bear and 1 or 2 Webelos on average.  Huge skew toward the 1st year.  That 1st year is KEY to getting critical mass and momentum and volunteers.

 

-----  READY TO JOIN ... Some Kindergarten boys are just not ready to join ... or the parents may think that.  It's a maturity thing.  

 

-----  TOO MUCH AT THE SAME TIME ... Parents are putting their son in school for the FIRST TIME.  Everything about school is new.  Some parents may just not want to pile yet one more NEW thing on their son ... within the 1st TEN DAYS of a brand new major experience.  

 

 

So if the age group has 12 interested boys, Lions only gets 4 or 5.  Families are busy, so 2 or 3 show up at den meetings or events.  Low participation --> high drop out rate ---> bad word-of-mouth reputation.  

 

Then, first grade year ... Tigers.  The ones you've lost are gone.  Some hear bad word of mouth.  Some join, but now instead of 10 to 12, there are just another 5 to 6 scouts.  Again, families are busy.  Low participation --> high drop out --> you can lose the whole grade.

 

Our pack has had it for 3 or 4 years, this last year is good.  8 Lions.  Previous years, I think we lost near 70% of those scouts.  ... Previous to Lions, we'd pull 10+ scouts in 1st grade.   Usually, we've recruited 3 to 4 Lions and 1 or 2 Tigers.  I think the previous year's poor Lion experience cost us big time in tiger recruitment.

 

IMHO, you really only have one chance to recruit big numbers from a pool of boys.  After that, you may get a trickle, but not enough to make a difference. 

 

 

-----  MATURITY.  There is a huge maturity difference between Kindergarten and 4th / 5th grades.   So you have to adjust the program DOWNWARD.  And, then the older boys start seeing Cub Scouts as a little kid thing instead of things cool thing with fire, knives, archery, bb-guns, etc.  

 

 

-----  BURN OUT.  Ya know ...Cub Scouts just does NOT have that much in it.  Very repetitive.  You can wash and style and dress a pig, but it's still a pig.  There is only so much new fresh content for those years.  And, Cub scouts depends very heavily on adult volunteers.  You want them to volunteer for FIVE AND A HALF YEARS?   Yeah right.  

 

-----  GETS STALE - Packs tend to repeat successful events.  It works if you have relatively new or young scouts (K, 1st & 2nd).  Then by 3rd & 4th grades, the boys have been there and done that.  By 4th & 5th grades, it's just bad.

 

-----  BOY SCOUTS - My big fear is between lower recruitment, lower maturity level and higher burn-out, we will result in fewer Boy Scouts.  It's during those critical years that boys need the character influence and the safety home of scouting.

 

============================================================ 

 

2) What is the program like?

 

Relatively loose.  Ours was a trial program and what they were supposed to do was poorly defined.  We told our scouts to basically get the boys together, have fun and do outings.  ... Hard to recruit parents at that age of boy.  They are just busy enough herding their sons.  

 

============================================================ 

 

3) What are they allowed to do? Not Do?

 

IMHO, think of Tiger year #2.  But I really don't know much about boundaries of the program.

 

============================================================ 

 

4) How is retention?

 

Our experience is poor.  We've lost alot.  Small scouting den versus BIG soccer numbers.  Makes scouting look like the loser.  

 

==========================================================================================

 

IMHO, scouting should make the really hard choice and put Cub Scouts back to 2nd grade.  

 

The selling pitch is scouts teach character and skills using the outdoors and knives and fire and archery and ...

 

Unsaid --> Let soccer be known as the little kid program.

 

***********************************************

***********************************************

 

There is also a more important issue.  

 

AT WHAT AGE DOES SCOUTING HAVE THE BIGGEST EFFECT?  

 

It's 11 to 15 ... setting a tone for becoming a man.   After that 16-17.  Then 9-10. 

 

So we recruit 5 & 6 year olds?  Do you really expect parents to keep their kids in the same program for 12 years ????

 

Plus, Lions and Tigers are exposed to so much that fire, knives and camping is not fresh and new when they are Boy Scouts.  

Edited April 22, 2015 by fred johnson

[Eagledad]

Wow Fred, if we could go back into the archives, you would find several of my post that are almost word for word identical to yours. Only difference is that I was talking only of the Tigers because we didn't have Lions. I even predicted the loss of Troop age scouts (which came true) as a result of you guessed it, BURN OUT. 

 

What was my proposed solution, to add a kindergarten age and separate the first two years from the Wolves Tigers and Bears like the Girls Scouts do in their program. I hope you feel a little vindicated from my response because I feel vindicated reading your post. It's not like I didn't warn National about this several times. Many folks thought I just hated the Tigers but they couldn't see results of bringing in boys at such an early maturity. It changes the whole dynamic of the pack and burns out the adults along the way. The other problem that you will see is a greater loss of Webelos as a result of the burned out leaders. I spent more time trying to fix our Webelos leadership than I spent recruiting any other age group.  

 

One other thing, you kind of hinted at that recruiting at the first year is critical because you get most of your scouts and volunteers, so there is some concern that if you don't get your scouts at that age, your pack would suffer. But we had a pack that decided to not recruit at the Tiger age for the same reasons we are talking about here. I watched that pack and they did not suffer a numbers drop after five years. So, I conclude that the main problem of loosing scouts at the 5 and 6 year age is the maturity of the scouts. If you can recruit in the 2nd grade like the BSA use to do, that is a solid maturity where you will most likely keep the scouts and not risk as high of burnout with the adults during the Webelos age. 

 

I like your idea of splitting the meeting, but of course I suggested years ago, so I would. Give it a try, I would if I were in your shoes. I did a lot of different ideas from the BSA Tiger and WEbelos model to keep our scouts and we retained 95 percent of both age groups. National has this one wrong, so do what you have to do to get it right.

 

Barry

[scoutldr]

Just for discussion, here is the way GSUSA breaks it out, as of 2008:

 

• Girl Scout Daisy (grades K–1)
• Girl Scout Brownies (grades 2–3)
• Girl Scout Juniors (grades 4–5)
• Girl Scout Cadettes (grades 6–8)
• Girl Scout Seniors (grades 9–10)
• Girl Scout Ambassadors (grades 11–12)

[Eagle94-A1]

Thank you for the info.

 

To use an infamous quoe in the Star Wars universe, "I've got a bad feeling about this." Why do I have a feeling that national is going to unveil Lions  next month or August 1, 2015 when they traditionally come out with new programs.

 

In regards to burn out, as most know I'm a Scouting addict with 32 years in as both youth and adult. After 6 years of Cub Scouts (3 years with oldest, 2 years with middle, and 1 year with youngest sons) I AM BURNT OUT ON CUB SCOUTS!  I've already sent in my notice that May 25th will be my last event as a DL, and I'm switching over to pack committee. June 8th will be my first troop meeting as an ASM, adn I cannot wait!

[Eagledad]

In some classes I took in college, I learned that the average volunteer in volunteer run organizations give less than two years. Two years! And the BSA wants how many from us.

 

I can't understand where National thinks this idea will work. I know that I was complaining about the Tiger program to them before the added more volunteers and more time requirements to that age group in 2000. I was the District Membership Chairman at the time and our pack leaders were really angry. I calculated that it took as man hours to manage the Tiger group as all the other age groups combined.

 

Barry

[scoutldr]

The BSA only wants one hour a week.  The DE actually said that at School Night when I registered Son #1 for cubs.

[Fehler]

A properly run Lion program, according to the scant materials I've received, is supposed to be kept entirely separate from the rest of the Pack, with a once-monthly "Den Meeting" and a once-monthly "Go-see-it".  It is only through lazy/misinformed Cub Scout Leaders and parent that want the kindergartners to be included with the older Pack/older brothers that shoehorned it into pre-Tigers with a Den Meeting/Pack Meeting schedule.

 

This year is the first year I've had enough Lions to have a decent group of them (6, with only 2 of them being little brothers).  Of course, I also only have 2 Tigers (started with 4).  Because I've only had 1 a year for the prior three years, I've let them just be a "Tag-along" with the Tigers.  Now I have a real parent leader, and he's running a good group (but its still Den-Pack Meeting focused, but they did a few of their own Go-see-its as a Den).

[Eagle94-A1]

Fehler,

 

That's how Tigers initially started in August 1982. It was suppose to be a separate program for 2nd Graders that did  their own meetings and Go-See-Its. Tigers initially had their own promise and motto,uniform, and when you completed the program you first wore a square "Tiger Cub Graduate" patch as temp insignia, and later a Tiger Cub Graduate strip.  Heck you can still see an occasional Scouter with an service star with an orange backing for their one year in Tigers.

 

No matter what you try to do, it will end up with a Den-Pack meeting focus.

[Fehler]

But to go back to your originally point, I think you would lose a lot if you went to splitting the Pack by age, both with parents that span the age break, and parents that get lost with the split from one age group to the next (as what happens too often in Webelos Transition now).  Plus you'd have the problems of having two Pack Committees where leaders have limited time.  Right now most parents starting in Tigers don't do much except be a Den Leader, and by the time they're Bears they are my Pack Committee.

 

Can you split the Pack by location?  Or is there another nearby Pack that could use propping up?  I've always been peeved that the "mega Pack" down the street from us (they have 70 boys less then 1/2 mile away to our 30 boys) doesn't acknowledge our existence, except when staking out territory for Popcorn Sales.

 

The key to avoid burnout is variety and increasing complexity in activity.  The Webelos should be doing something different then the Wolves, or at least teaching the Wolves what to do.

[fred johnson]

A properly run Lion program, according to the scant materials I've received, is supposed to be kept entirely separate from the rest of the Pack, with a once-monthly "Den Meeting" and a once-monthly "Go-see-it".  It is only through lazy/misinformed Cub Scout Leaders and parent that want the kindergartners to be included with the older Pack/older brothers that shoehorned it into pre-Tigers with a Den Meeting/Pack Meeting schedule.

 

This year is the first year I've had enough Lions to have a decent group of them (6, with only 2 of them being little brothers).  Of course, I also only have 2 Tigers (started with 4).  Because I've only had 1 a year for the prior three years, I've let them just be a "Tag-along" with the Tigers.  Now I have a real parent leader, and he's running a good group (but its still Den-Pack Meeting focused, but they did a few of their own Go-see-its as a Den).

 

 

The Webelos should be doing something different then the Wolves, or at least teaching the Wolves what to do.

 

Yeah ... well ... maybe we are lazy and/or misinformed.  I don't have much time to get pissed about cheap comments.

 

A good share of our den programming comes from the pack level.  Each month with a pack meeting.  Most months have a big event too.  Dens don't have to attend.  They can, but not required.  But most do because there are more volunteers to put a good event on.  Most dens have one or two volunteers keeping the den together.  So if there is something their den can tag onto, it helps them succeed.  

 

It's unrealistic to expect Lions to stay separate from the pack.   They will only see a shadow of the program and it will hurt their retention.  Then the next year you expect more out of the den?  More volunteers?  More involvement.  

 

I just don't see it.  That first year sets a tone for becoming part of the pack.  

[Eagledad]

A properly run Lion program, according to the scant materials I've received, is supposed to be kept entirely separate from the rest of the Pack, with a once-monthly "Den Meeting" and a once-monthly "Go-see-it".  It is only through lazy/misinformed Cub Scout Leaders and parent that want the kindergartners to be included with the older Pack/older brothers that shoehorned it into pre-Tigers with a Den Meeting/Pack Meeting schedule.

 

Running the Tigers how you say the Lions are designed to be run are the suggestions I give National for the Tiger program back in 1998. Our Tiger program was very successful after we changed to those methods. But I still think both the Lions and Tigers need to be run that way, not just Lions. Tigers are no more mature than Lions.

 

I have to smile a little at your comment of Lazy/misinformed Lion Cub Scout Leaders and Parents because those same adults were the cause of the Tiger program program as well. I guess they are a very loud group, but totally misinformed. 

 

I'm with you guys in spirit because I spent A LOT time trying to improves these programs. Dealing with National on the Tiger program was like paddling up Niagara Falls. 

 

Barry

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

 

It's unrealistic to expect Lions to stay separate from the pack.   They will only see a shadow of the program and it will hurt their retention.  Then the next year you expect more out of the den?  More volunteers?  More involvement.  

 

I just don't see it.  That first year sets a tone for becoming part of the pack.  

 

Only two meetings a month worked very well for us. Just as you pointed out earlier, these parents are very busy and are actually relieved to not be so obligated. We invited the Tigers to fun pack activities so they were introduced to the pack as a whole, but we didn't invite them to typical Pack meetings until April so that they started getting used to next years routine. I usually had the next years leaders picked out and trained, so they started acting the position to get a feel for it.

 

You got it right in looking at these early programs in the big picture of whole program, but don't let your fear of low recruiting drive your pack plan. 

 

You may not realize it yet, but in the Cub years, you are not recruiting the boys, you are recruiting the parents. That means the program MUST appeal to the parents schedule and lifestyle for them to give you their son. That is why requiring one meeting and one go-and-seek works so well for the five and six year olds. Our pack was one of two packs that split. The other pack followed the meeting every week and Pack meeting every month plan. They typically lost 60 % of their tigers by the end of the year. We retained 95 % of ours. And, we did not require anything from Tiger parents during their Tiger year. Burnout is a real problem, so delay adult responsibilities as long as possible. I am on record saying that I think the Tiger program run the way it is now is the Number ONE cause of families quiting the scouting program through the ages of 11 years old because it burns out the adults. 

 

Barry

Edited April 23, 2015 by Eagledad

[fred johnson]

EagleDad - We'll try it your way.  We have no choice.  Council pushes the recruitment info out and we're going to get some kindergarten scouts no matter what. 

 

And it sort of gets to the heart of this thread, splitting the larger pack into two groups by age.  I'd almost like to do it with Tigers too.

 

 

And maybe we'll create a dummy schedule for them to start with some go-see-its, etc.