Mb Day Vent

[CalicoPenn]

How do Councils and Districts get away with it?  I know it's convenient to blame the parents because the parents insist on these kinds of opportunities for the boys, but I don't blame the parents.  I blame the volunteers that agree to act as MBC's at these events (looking at you Torchwood    ).  If those volunteers would follow Nancy Reagan's advice from the 1980's and just say no, then these events wouldn't taking place at all.  The problem is, of course, that many of these volunteers are also parents that want these kinds of events so that their sons can earn merit badges quickly and conveniently. 

[scoutldr]

Why don't we just pass out the badges and save everyone a lot of time?  The learning experience will be the same and the parents will be satisfied.  And BSA still gets to sell badges and increase advancement metrics.  Win/Win/Win

[Gone]

How do Councils and Districts get away with it?  I know it's convenient to blame the parents because the parents insist on these kinds of opportunities for the boys, but I don't blame the parents.  I blame the volunteers that agree to act as MBC's at these events (looking at you Torchwood    ).  If those volunteers would follow Nancy Reagan's advice from the 1980's and just say no, then these events wouldn't taking place at all.  The problem is, of course, that many of these volunteers are also parents that want these kinds of events so that their sons can earn merit badges quickly and conveniently. 

 

Sorry, but I *do* blame the parents. Parents should want the best for their kids. Are the parents happy if their kid passes a class in school they deserved to fail? Do the parents want their kid to take 8th Grade Science but not know how many planets are in solar system (correct answer is 9 because Pluto is too a planet)? C'mon, not blaming the parents is a cop out. Sorry. Unless they want mediocrity of their kid across the board then parents are absolutely to blame here. My own son attended a MC "college" where they taught First Aid via Powerpoint for 8 hours. No hands on. No nothing. He got signed off and came home totally dis-heartened. One of his first MBs. I, as a parent, heard him out, asked him what he wanted to do and then offered to send him through a Red Cross first aid course BEFORE he would submit his card for credit. He came back from that class LOVING first aid. So yeah, parents CAN make a big difference. The issue here is what type of experience do you want for your Scout?

 

As for MBCs, yes, I totally blame them too!! If they were stricter none of this would be necessary and would be a check against those parents who don't mind mediocrity.

 

As for councils and districts, don't get me started. If they spent more time policing these shabby MB factories than promoting them, we'd have happier kids, stronger Scouts and fewer paper Eagles.

 

[\ getting down off soap box]

 

Torchwood Lives!

Edited April 22, 2015 by Mozartbrau

[Torchwood]

Calico-

 

I think that the concept of a Merit Badge event, in and of itself is not a horrible idea. I do have an issue with the way a lot of the badges are being "taught", since the role of a MBC is not to teach the content of the pamphlet to the Scouts. In my situation, I truly feel that they way I structured the sessions so that they were discussions of the content, rather than me lecturing to a roomful of Scouts on a Saturday morning, made it a worthwhile experience for them (and me too). As i said, I was not there to rubber stamp a stack of blue cards, and even though this was not a class with an "Automatic Partial" asterisk next to it, only 5 or 6 of the 33 boys actually did the work, so only those 5 or 6 earned the Merit Badge. My son attends MBU, and has gotten a lot out of it, but he is also a very dilligent student, and dives into every subject as if his life depends on it. I also quiz him about his experience on the drive home- just to make sure that he is not being spoon fed the information that is in the pamphlets- which he reads and marks up as soon as they are delivered, usually a couople of weeks before the first weekend of MBU. He has done Cit in the Comm and Cit in the Nat at the last 2 events, and he sat down and did the reading, looked up inofrmation online, made an appointment with a Selectman (and gave an interview to the man that prompted him to email me later to tell me how insightful and mature his questions were). I know he is doing the work to earn the badges. I can't speak for everyone, and I know that there are plenty of badges being "earned" that are not truly being earned. I just hate to see the whole concept be maligned when it could actually be done on a large scale with proper results.

[pargolf44067]

How do Councils and Districts get away with it?  I know it's convenient to blame the parents because the parents insist on these kinds of opportunities for the boys, but I don't blame the parents.  I blame the volunteers that agree to act as MBC's at these events (looking at you Torchwood    ).  If those volunteers would follow Nancy Reagan's advice from the 1980's and just say no, then these events wouldn't taking place at all.  The problem is, of course, that many of these volunteers are also parents that want these kinds of events so that their sons can earn merit badges quickly and conveniently. 

 

I think you have to blame the parents to some degree.  The issue with the MB Counselors is that I know I have been harassed and harassed by my District Advancement person to volunteer.  I have yet to do so, but I'm sure I have made no friends because of that.  I do blame the MBCs that volunteer and then do a crappy job of rubber stamping (to quote Torchwood) a blue card, which I know has been done before.  I have to admit my younger son went to one of these because when he was younger my wife kind of pushed him to sign up.  Once I saw what was done at these things, I told my wife that I didn't think that was the best way for him to earn hi MBs and she backed off.  There have been MB Counselors from our troop who volunteered once and wouldn't again because of the grief they got when little Johnny couldn't earn their entire badge at the MB Midway.  These guys were sticklers from making sure the boys knew what they had to know before they got it signed off.  Someone actually couldn't understand why they couldn't earn the Cycling MB at the MB Midway.  They didn't look at the requirements close enough to notice that you actually had to take cycling trips to earn it!

Edited April 22, 2015 by pargolf44067

[Eagle94-A1]

Parents, especialy the helicopter variety, ARE part of the problem. I've encountered too many parents who only want their sons to Eagle as soon as possible so that is checked off the list of to do things. One year we had a MB weekend instead of a camporee. All of the scouts I talked to hated it, but a lot of the parents loved it. Thankfully we never had a second weekend 'cause word got back to the PTB that the Scouts wanted competition, not classes.

 

And I also put some of the blame on MBCs who aren't trained, and do not know what is actually expected of them. I admit I've done 2 merit badge colleges, and a daylong Indian Lore MB Seminar as a fundraiser. In both cases unless work was done prior to the event, you got a partial.

[TAHAWK]

@@NJCubScouter, in my area we have MB events that last a day. Scouts are told to complete the "prerequisites" at home which are usually the two time consuming requirements. The MBC teaches some or most of the rest. He/she then sign off on the WHOLE badge if the scout attests to having completed those other requirements.

 

I've seen all Citizenships, Cooking, First Aid and even Wilderness Survival signed off in a day without any hands-on work by the scouts or even any outdoor work. Our SM is supposed to sign these cards and hand out these badges? Our only recourse is to report th event and each counselor for not following the MBC training and the GTA. Other than that we have to award these. It's criminal.

 

Actually, the "troop leader" has discretion, subject to appeal, to refuse to award the MB.  I quoted the 2013 GTA a few days ago, and the 2015 version has the same language:

 

"7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges

 

From time to time, it may be discovered that merit badges could not actually have been earned. For example, a Scout who returns from summer camp or a merit badge fair with signed blue cards for an extraordinary number of badges could raise concerns. If, after consulting with those involved in the merit badge program—such as an event coordinator, the camp director, or a merit badge counselor—it becomes plainly evident that a youth could not have actually and personally fulfilled requirements as written, then the limited recourse outlined below is available. It may result in a decision that some or all of the requirements for a badge could not have been fulfilled, and thus, that the badge was not actually earned.

 

After such a consultation, the unit leader, in a positive environment similar to that of a unit leader conference, discusses with the Scout the circumstances under which a merit badge in question was approved. A parent or an assistant unit leader should attend as an observer. The young man shall not be retested on the requirements, but a conversation with him can reveal if he was present at the class and actually and personally fulfilled all the requirements. Such a discussion could cover who taught a class, what sort of activities took place, where and when they occurred, how testing was done, what the Scout might have brought home from the class, and other similar process-oriented details.

 

In most cases, with a fair and friendly approach, a young man who did not complete the requirements will admit it. Short of this, however, if it remains clear under the circumstances that some or all of the requirements could not have been met, then the merit badge is not reported or awarded, and does not count toward advancement. The unit leader then offers the name of at least one other merit badge counselor through whom any incomplete requirements may be finished. Note that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away†because, although signed off, it was never actually earned.

 

Just as we avoid penalizing Scouts for the mistakes of adults, it should be a rare occurrence that a unit leader finds the need to question whether merit badges have been earned. This procedure for recourse is limited and reserved only for clear and evident cases of noncompletion or nonparticipation. For example, the recourse could be allowed when it would not have been possible to complete a specific requirement at the location of the class, event, or camp; if time available was not sufficient—perhaps due to class size or other factors—for the counselor to observe that each Scout personally and actually completed all the requirements; if time available was insufficient for a “calendar†requirement such as for Personal Fitness or Personal Management; or if multiple merit badges in question were scheduled at the same time.

 

This procedure is not to be viewed as an opportunity for retesting on requirements, for interjecting another set of standards over those of a merit badge counselor, or for debating issues such as whether a Scout was strong enough, mature enough, or old enough to have completed requirements.

 

Unit leaders who find it necessary to make use of this recourse must act quickly—if possible, within 30 days of discovery. It is inappropriate to delay a Scout’s advancement with anything less than a prompt decision

 

If a Scout or his parent or guardian believes a unit leader has incorrectly determined a Scout has not earned a merit badge, or more than 30 days have passed without a reasonable explanation for the lack of a decision, they should address their concerns with the unit committee. They should first, however, develop a thorough understanding of the merit badge requirements and that each one must be passed exactly as it is set forth.

 

Upon encountering any merit badge program where BSA standards are not upheld, unit leaders are strongly encouraged to report the incident to the council advancement committee, preferably using the form found in the appendix (see “Reporting Merit Badge Counseling Concerns,†11.1.0.0)."

 

 

To the extent that BSA sincerely wishes to avoid "penalizing Scouts for the mistakes of adults," it should stop councils from running merit badge mills.  That would be more efficient than setting the "troop leader" as the fox in the hen houses of fraud being operated by council "professionals."

Edited April 23, 2015 by TAHAWK

[MaDDoG]

I'm going to be ornery with this one. I am the District Advancement Chair for my district - and I have ZERO issues with a scheduled event - not a troop meeting - where a (or a group of) merit badge counselor(s) teach all of the information and skills for a merit badge.

Once the event is finished, the scouts then need to meet one-on-one (in full view of of other scouts/parents/leaders, blah blah blah) with the counselor, and then demonstrate, explain, show, etc. the counselor what they individually actually know. That is the right way to run a MB clinic, university, whatever.

[Stosh]

Sounds like a better system than what we have now where the boys expect to finish on the same day.

 

Here's my take, however, on the long run.  I'm thinking it's great to introduce the material to the boys at the event, but how many of the boys are going to do a followup and thus leave a ton of partials on the books.  Our boys and their parents are into the Sesame Street version of everything.  If it takes more than 5 seconds, it's too long and I want instant gratification for any and all effort no mater how little.  

 

Are these counselors being drawn from a district or a council?  How far will the boys have to travel afterwards for the followup sessions?  This too could be a problem even for some more dedicated boys.  Then there's scheduling, 2+ boys/2-deep issues all the way around.

 

It would be interesting to try it a few times and get feedback before institutionalizing it.

[eagle77]

MaDDoG,

    I wouldn't mind if they were done that way either. But for the most part they really are not. Let me give you an example. I had a boy go to one of these things he came back with some partials (which he should have for the badges he was doing) but he handed me a completed card for Coin Collecting. Well I simply asked him what cities are the US mints located? His answer was Seattle, Detriot, and a secret place because that one has no stamp on the coin. Our troop is located just 10 miles from Phila. and he didn't even know that the secret place was there. I then told him that he would have to redo the badge and that I would not approve this one. Well at the end of the meeting he told mom, who then called dad and as I was leaving they asked why I was picking on their son? Beleive me this was not pretty, the dad got in my face and mom was screaming at me. So I told them  chill out this was part of my job as SM. Needless to say one of them went to council and cnoplained that I was picking on their son. Luckily the person at council told them there was nothing they could do. So I blame parents and lazy MB counselors> Oh and let's not forget the lazy SM who don't check on how these things are being run. I for one never approved or annouce these things because the ones done by my council or district really are simple MB mills. Parents for the most part could really care less if the boy comes out of this program with any knowledge, just make sure they have that Eagle to put on their resume. The parents who do care are just gettting more and more rare, at least in my area they are.  Oh and this wasn't some 11 or 12 year old boy, he had just turned 15.

[Stosh]

MaDDoG,

    I wouldn't mind if they were done that way either. But for the most part they really are not. Let me give you an example. I had a boy go to one of these things he came back with some partials (which he should have for the badges he was doing) but he handed me a completed card for Coin Collecting. Well I simply asked him what cities are the US mints located? His answer was Seattle, Detriot, and a secret place because that one has no stamp on the coin. Our troop is located just 10 miles from Phila. and he didn't even know that the secret place was there. I then told him that he would have to redo the badge and that I would not approve this one. Well at the end of the meeting he told mom, who then called dad and as I was leaving they asked why I was picking on their son? Beleive me this was not pretty, the dad got in my face and mom was screaming at me. So I told them  chill out this was part of my job as SM. Needless to say one of them went to council and cnoplained that I was picking on their son. Luckily the person at council told them there was nothing they could do. So I blame parents and lazy MB counselors> Oh and let's not forget the lazy SM who don't check on how these things are being run. I for one never approved or annouce these things because the ones done by my council or district really are simple MB mills. Parents for the most part could really care less if the boy comes out of this program with any knowledge, just make sure they have that Eagle to put on their resume. The parents who do care are just gettting more and more rare, at least in my area they are.  Oh and this wasn't some 11 or 12 year old boy, he had just turned 15.

 

This is why I don't promote, nor encourage my boys to go to these events.  There's just too much adult abuse going on with them.

[TAHAWK]

I'm going to be ornery with this one. I am the District Advancement Chair for my district - and I have ZERO issues with a scheduled event - not a troop meeting - where a (or a group of) merit badge counselor(s) teach all of the information and skills for a merit badge.

 

Once the event is finished, the scouts then need to meet one-on-one (in full view of of other scouts/parents/leaders, blah blah blah) with the counselor, and then demonstrate, explain, show, etc. the counselor what they individually actually know. That is the right way to run a MB clinic, university, whatever.

 

 

 

 

 

Earning merit badges should be Scout initiated, Scout researched, and Scout learned. It should be hands-on and interactive, and should not be modeled after a typical school classroom setting. Instead, it is meant to be an active program so enticing to young men that they will want to take responsibility for their own full participation 

 

The sort of hands-on interactive experience described here, with personal coaching and guidance, is hardly ever achieved in any setting except when one counselor works directly with one Scout and his buddy, or with a very small group. Thus, this small-scale approach is the recommended best practice for merit badge instruction and requirement fulfillment. Units, districts, and councils should focus on providing the most direct merit badge experiences possible. Large group and Web-based instruction, while perhaps efficient, do not measure up in terms of the desired outcomes with regard to learning and positive association with adults.

[MaDDoG]

From the Guide to Advancement 2015:
 

The Scout may also want to take advantage of opportunities at merit badge fairs or midways, or at rock-climbing gyms or whitewater rafting trips that provide merit badge instruction. This is also acceptable..."

Teaching skills necessitates a "hands-on interactive experience", frequently "with personal coaching and guidance".
Requiring each scout to schedule and complete a personal meeting with a counselor forces them "to take responsibility for their own full participation.  If they show up to their meeting, and don't know their material, or are unable to demonstrate or show, or ... this is no different than how things work in the best of situations
 

When the Scout meets with the counselor, he should bring any required projects. If these cannot be transported, he should present evidence, such as photographs or adult verification...

Once a counselor has reviewed the signed Application for Merit Badge, he or she might begin with discussions about what the Scout already knows. This could be followed with coaching, guidance, and additional meetings, not only for passing the candidate on the requirements, but also to help him understand the subject.

 

Separating the group instruction from their personal meeting with a counselor is no different than a scout learning the information for any of the citizenship badges in their government  classes, attending a city council meeting with their troop, attending one of the US mints as part of a school trip, or whatever - it's a tool for them to learn them to learn the skills and knowledge necessary for completing the badge - nothing more, nothing less.

 

This model can - and already should be - used for completing merit badges at summer camp. At the end of the camp week, your counselors already should be having each scout individually show, demonstrate, explain, etc., bringing in their targets from the rifle range, or notes from EnviroSci, etc for a personal review of their efforts in completing the requirements.

Will this model lead to more partials? Mmm.... probably. But... - I don't see this as a problem (compared to scouts that are awarded a badge for attending, as is frequently currently done). What is more likely, is that you will have a scout that has a signed blue card from a scoutmaster, that hasn't been signed off for anything because they haven't taken the initiative to meet with a counselor.

[Scouter99]

@@NJCubScouter, in my area we have MB events that last a day. Scouts are told to complete the "prerequisites" at home which are usually the two time consuming requirements. The MBC teaches some or most of the rest. He/she then sign off on the WHOLE badge if the scout attests to having completed those other requirements.

I've seen all Citizenships, Cooking, First Aid and even Wilderness Survival signed off in a day without any hands-on work by the scouts or even any outdoor work. Our SM is supposed to sign these cards and hand out these badges? Our only recourse is to report th event and each counselor for not following the MBC training and the GTA. Other than that we have to award these. It's criminal.

 

Not n'more:

 

7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges

From time to time, it may be discovered that merit badges could not actually have been earned . For example, a Scout who returns from summer camp or a merit badge fair with signed blue cards for an extraordinary number of badges could raise concerns.

If, after consulting with those involved in the merit badge program—such as an event coordinator, the camp director, or a merit badge counselor—it becomes plainly evident that a youth could not have actually and personally fulfilled requirements as written, then the limited recourse outlined below is available. It may result in a decision that some or all of the requirements for a badge could not have been fulfilled, and thus, that the badge was not actually earned.

And so on with the path to not awarding the fraudulent MB.

It pays to read the books.  Page 52 http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

Edited May 25, 2015 by Scouter99

[Gone]

Not n'more:

 

 

And so on with the path to not awarding the fraudulent MB.

It pays to read the books.  Page 52 http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

I've read the books. Been down this path. Still had to sign. Case in point, boys spent 8 hours in a first aid MB course watching power points. No actual hands on work for first aid. Boys hated it, our SM refused to sign because the spirit of the MB was not followed. A parent complained to district and council. We were "ordered" by the council to sign and award the badge. SM refused and said council could sign and award if that's how they felt. Stood behind the very clause you posted. Council threatened to pull his membership if he didn't award the badge. He handed the parents the badge and the blue card and invited them to find another troop.