Mb Day Vent

[Stosh]

I find that the MB's that are not really completed, but signed off on just take away the value of the Eagle rank.  It is this kind of activity sponsored by councils that contribute to the problem.  MB's at summer camp, MB's at MB Day, Troops doing internal MB's instead of scouting, all add up to a well pencil-whipped Paper Eagles.  
 
I find the "work" done after FC is pretty much a waste of valuable scouting time.  Instead of being out camping they are sitting in Citizenship classrooms.  Instead of cooking on an open fire on a weekend, they are cooing at the MB counselor's patio for Saturday lunch.  Instead of a 3 day bike trip with camping they are doing a requisite 5 miler for some MB credit, not necessarily for fun.
 
The boys do service projects during this time.  Well they are nothing more than Good Turns that they get advancement credit hours for.  The Eagle project tends to be a grandiose service project with a ton of paperwork and political posturing and a convenient excuse to rack up service project hours for the younger scout's advancement..
 
POR's?  Don't even get me started with these.  The threads here attest to the problems with those.
 
So all in all.  What beyond FC is of real value other than ego building and political posturing?  
 
Star rank -
 
Camp for at least 20 days,   Summer camp can be counted since earning FC
 
Organize and lead a camping troop/patrol event, emphasizing the patrol-method that lasts at least 2 full days.  Friday @ 5:00 pm through Sunday @ 5:00 pm.
 
Organize and lead a service project that benefits an organization not affiliated with BSA.
 
Provide advancement instruction for FC advancement on 5 different topics.
 
Earn at least 7 MB's at the basic level
 
Life rank
 
Camp for at least 20 days,   Summer camp can be counted since earning Star
 
Organize and lead two camping troop/patrol events, emphasizing the patrol-method that lasts at least 2 full days.  Friday @ 5:00 pm through Sunday @ 5:00 pm.
 
Organize and lead two service projects that benefits an organization not affiliated with BSA.
 
Provide advancement instruction for FC advancement on 5 different topics.
 
Earn at least 7 MB's at the intermediate level
 
Eagle rank
 
Camp for at least 20 days,   Summer camp can be counted since earning Life
 
Organize and lead three camping troop/patrol events, emphasizing the patrol-method that lasts at least 2 full days.  Friday @ 5:00 pm through Sunday @ 5:00 pm.
 
Organize and lead three service projects that benefits an organization not affiliated with BSA.
 
Provide advancement instruction for FC advancement on 5 different topics.
 
Earn at least 7 MB's at the advanced level.

 

 

In order to actually accomplish this, the boys would need to complete their T-FC within 12-18 months, but with all the older boys teaching 5 different topics on a regular basis, that shouldn't be that difficult to do.

 

That leaves 5-6 years to complete the other three ranks even if they dawdle.  Half the camping credit could be the 10 days of summer camp.  That leaves 5 outings over two years.  Not a stretch at all.

 

The organizing of troop/patrol camping events, well, there are 24 opportunities at each 2 year cycle time.  Could knock that requirement off in 2-3 months.

 

Service projects?  Same as the camping events

 

Teaching the younger boys shouldn't take much longer.  Those lessons could be taught at meetings and if there are a lot of boys needing to teach the sessions could be broken down into patrols,

 

The MB's will take longer, but 7 in 2 years is not difficult

 

I'm thinking a system like this is meant to be stretched out, develop leadership and management skills, provide routine and keep the boys from taking a 2-3 hiatus after getting Life and before they come rushing back at age 17 to get their books pencil-whipped for Eagle.

 

 

So, what about those POR's???? Well, I'm thinking that will all occur naturally because in order to accomplish Eagle, everyone is going to need everyone else's help to make it happen.  It's called teamwork and leadership....   If one has boys that don't pay attention in the instructional part of their duties, or no one shows up for your service project or camping outing, maybe one ought to focus a bit on their leadership skills because management alone isn't going to be enough.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Stosh

[pargolf44067]

Interesting thoughts Stosh.  I think it would keep older scouts involved longer.  I think there might be issues with the 20 nights of camping as boys get older especially as they get jobs and more involved in HS activities, so I think there should be some camping requirement but 20 nights at each rank might be tough.

 

We do have some of the same issues with boys being fairly uninvolved for a while and then deciding (in most cases with parents' persuasion) that, hey, I think I want to get Eagle!

[Torchwood]

I agree with Stosh. Yes, those rank requirements are tough. They should be. The Eagle needs to have that tarnish polished off, and this is one good way to do it while reinforcing the outdoors as our venue of choice.

 

I am a MBC for multiple badges, and was assigned DIgital Technology for our local Merit Badge University in March. I am on the fence about the real value of these venues, but for some badges I think they can work. At least we have 3 sessions, with a break between the 2nd and 3rd, so the Scouts have some time purposely set aside to complete some of the requirements. The organizers always talk about "teaching" a Merit Badge, but that really isn't our job. We are supposed to counsel the Scouts about how they might complete the requirements, discuss topics with them, and sign off when they have been completed. Period. I was assigned a 2nd counselor, who despite my urging, sent me the most horrible PowerPoint presentation I have ever seen. I told him that was not how we counsel a Merit Badge. Despite it being a badge about technology, the right way to not use technology to spoon feed information to the Scouts, but to  lead the sessions (not classes!!!) was to generate a series of questions that would lead to group discussions that would satisfy the requirements that start with "discuss with your counselor...". I sent an e-mail to all the boys that had signed up for my 3 sections, telling them what they were responsible for as prerequisite work, and for other work outside of our meetings that would satisfy the remainder of the requirements. Out of 33 Scouts, only a handful finished by our third and final session. Others are in contact with me, and I will sign off when they have completed the work, or they can find a local counselor to finish with. My 2nd counsleor never did make an appearance- I guess he wasn't up to the task of actually counseling the Scouts.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Torchwood

[wdfa89]

I do intend to bring it up with council--I imagine too late for this iteration.  I would hate to assume, but I guess there is too much inertia/$$$/etc tied up in the status quo.

 

Many of the badges I mentioned have a bunch of prereqs.  They are offering Personal Fitness and Personal Management--come with your 12 week logs filled out.  So basically all that is left are the "classroom" type stuff.  Again I didn't want to reignite the MB day debate--just point out I think NESA is missing the boat with this event, we should be pushing these boys to be outside.  I think this is what makes Scouts what it is and sets it apart form other activities.  If it isn't for everybody then so be it. 

 

Get the waterfront issues.  I know that isn't a simple one.  But with enough prior planning...(and I know I am setting myself up to be part of the solution...)

 

My main point was the whole event should outside focused based on time of year and location.  The council does a U of Scouting in Jan (we are Midwest so it is most definitely not great outside weather then) at a local HS so all the inside focused activities is appropriate.  Just seems a shame or wasted opportunity to me.

[Stosh]

Interesting thoughts Stosh.  I think it would keep older scouts involved longer.  I think there might be issues with the 20 nights of camping as boys get older especially as they get jobs and more involved in HS activities, so I think there should be some camping requirement but 20 nights at each rank might be tough.

 

We do have some of the same issues with boys being fairly uninvolved for a while and then deciding (in most cases with parents' persuasion) that, hey, I think I want to get Eagle!

 

Camping?  The original Camping MB required 50 nights of camping, not the current 20.   And if the boys take on other activities as they get older, it's up to them to also learn to manage their time.  It's all part of the same maturation process.  The value of the Eagle is not on how much you want it, it's in how hard are you willing to work for it.  If all you have to do is show up, then the Eagle Rank is nothing more than just another participation ribbon.

[pargolf44067]

Stosh, not disagreeing with you overall on your initial thoughts, and, in fact, I strongly agree with having a camping requirement.  I am just making a point that I think 20 nights per rank would be especially challenging.  Yes, as they get older they need to manage their time better and the more camping they do also continues to build on their leadership skills as well, but I think you can get similar results with 10 camping nights per rank.  Sure some boys that do High Adventure (heck, Philmont alone could get you the majority of the nights camping at 20) could make it easier, but then you have cost issues on some of those campouts.

 

I have had a person make Eagle Scout before they got into HS.  I take that on me as he got through the program (parent pushed) and made it all the way while I was SM.  That was one Eagle on my watch that I regret.  The only other one was someone that I sent on to the district for the EBOR, because I didn't want the threat of a lawsuit by the parents (they were always threatening things like that) on me or the COR, so I let the district advancement folks, who were aware of issues, make the up or down call on that.  They made the call and passed him on his EBOR.  Those two Eagles for obviously different reasons are the only two that I can honestly say, if I had to do over, I wouldn't have passed along.

 

So I definitely get your concerns and share them.

[Stosh]

Pargolf,

 

At no time did I think you were disagreeing, and I understand your 10 days issue.  You bring up some valid points, yet the ones that you regret are those that found it a walk-in-the-park attitude of intimidating parents that allowed 2 more Paper Eagles to get credit that Real Eagles worked hard to get.  20 or 10?  I don't think the actual numbers matter.  I came up with the formula of 5 days of summer camp, that leaves 15, that's 8 weekends....To me that's about a 1 year commitment to camping.  Putting that into perspective.  That means the boy does the minimum amount  T-FC - 12 months, That puts him at 12 years old.  Add 8 months for each of the ranks with 3 summer camps that puts him at 15 years of age.  That's reasonable, shorter if the boy adds a few patrol campouts along the way.  Heck, the boy can still get his Eagle before he needs his driver's license.

 

The point I was going for is to make the scouting journey something serious, something that the boy needs a challenge to so that when that Eagle is presented, he knows it is something that he had to dig a bit to accomplish, not just show up with mom and dad and the lawyer and have it presented.

 

Maybe we ought to have different levels of Eagles

 

1 Honorary Eagles (for the helicopter parents)

2 Paper Eagles 

3 STEM Eagles

4 Real Eagles

 

Personally I would like it to stay a truly Real Eagle program of some worth to the boys.  

[perdidochas]

Pargolf,

 

At no time did I think you were disagreeing, and I understand your 10 days issue.  You bring up some valid points, yet the ones that you regret are those that found it a walk-in-the-park attitude of intimidating parents that allowed 2 more Paper Eagles to get credit that Real Eagles worked hard to get.  20 or 10?  I don't think the actual numbers matter.  I came up with the formula of 5 days of summer camp, that leaves 15, that's 8 weekends....To me that's about a 1 year commitment to camping.  Putting that into perspective.  That means the boy does the minimum amount  T-FC - 12 months, That puts him at 12 years old.  Add 8 months for each of the ranks with 3 summer camps that puts him at 15 years of age.  That's reasonable, shorter if the boy adds a few patrol campouts along the way.  Heck, the boy can still get his Eagle before he needs his driver's license.

 

The point I was going for is to make the scouting journey something serious, something that the boy needs a challenge to so that when that Eagle is presented, he knows it is something that he had to dig a bit to accomplish, not just show up with mom and dad and the lawyer and have it presented.

 

Maybe we ought to have different levels of Eagles

 

1 Honorary Eagles (for the helicopter parents)

2 Paper Eagles 

3 STEM Eagles

4 Real Eagles

 

Personally I would like it to stay a truly Real Eagle program of some worth to the boys.  

 

While my first thought was that the 20 days camping per rank was overly tough, I looked at troop records, and realized that the boys that I think really deserve to get Eagle (due to their outdoor skills, leadership and scout spirit) are right on track with that.  The future Paper Eagles wouldn't. I wish that my troop didn't produce paper Eagles, but a few have gotten by. 

[pargolf44067]

The point I was going for is to make the scouting journey something serious, something that the boy needs a challenge to so that when that Eagle is presented, he knows it is something that he had to dig a bit to accomplish, not just show up with mom and dad and the lawyer and have it presented.

 

Maybe we ought to have different levels of Eagles

 

1 Honorary Eagles (for the helicopter parents)

2 Paper Eagles 

3 STEM Eagles

4 Real Eagles

 

Personally I would like it to stay a truly Real Eagle program of some worth to the boys.  

You and I are in total agreement on this (assuming the sarcasm for your levels of Eagles ).  

[pargolf44067]

While my first thought was that the 20 days camping per rank was overly tough, I looked at troop records, and realized that the boys that I think really deserve to get Eagle (due to their outdoor skills, leadership and scout spirit) are right on track with that.  The future Paper Eagles wouldn't. I wish that my troop didn't produce paper Eagles, but a few have gotten by. 

 

I'd have to check records, but that is probably true in my troop as well.

[DuctTape]

I agree with much that has been stated regarding the issues with the mb colleges, etc... While some make valud points about a few mbs and how they can be done in these venues, I think the proof is in the pudding that in general these types of mass-MB-mills are not a positive means for the boys.

 

The discussion over rank requirements is also apropos. I would eliminate the clause which allows a scout to work on any requirements for any rank at any time.

[Eagle94-A1]

Maybe it's the the fact that my son's troop is old school, but he got 18 days of camping in 1 year. Grant you 6 of those was summer camp. And he would have had 21 days if he hadn't of missed 2 camp outs.

 

So 20 days is not tough IMHO.

 

But then again, when only 4 camp outs are needed for Journey to Excellence, I think more OUTING in ScOUTING is needed.

[Stosh]

I agree with much that has been stated regarding the issues with the mb colleges, etc... While some make valud points about a few mbs and how they can be done in these venues, I think the proof is in the pudding that in general these types of mass-MB-mills are not a positive means for the boys.

 

The discussion over rank requirements is also apropos. I would eliminate the clause which allows a scout to work on any requirements for any rank at any time.

 

I agree, I kinda alluded to it with the phrase "since earning FC/Star/Life"  I think the levels of MB that I proposed could be overlapping so that the boy can reasonably finish the upper level MB classes on schedule with everything else.  Same kinda for the service/activities, not so much the younger boy instructional work though.  By the time he gets to the Eagle stage, he could have knocked out his 6 service projects before Life so he had more time to work on MB's for Eagle.  I don't see a problem with that, but I don't want to see a boy doing all his young boy teaching while working on Star and then not doing anything more.

 

I just kinda tossed it out there as general topics to be picked apart, not any precise conclusions drawn.

[perdidochas]

Maybe it's the the fact that my son's troop is old school, but he got 18 days of camping in 1 year. Grant you 6 of those was summer camp. And he would have had 21 days if he hadn't of missed 2 camp outs.

 

So 20 days is not tough IMHO.

 

But then again, when only 4 camp outs are needed for Journey to Excellence, I think more OUTING in ScOUTING is needed.

My oldest son had been in the troop for 5 years as of March 2015. At that point he had 101 nights camping.  He's gotten another 4 nights since then. 

[DuctTape]

I agree, I kinda alluded to it with the phrase "since earning FC/Star/Life"  I think the levels of MB that I proposed could be overlapping so that the boy can reasonably finish the upper level MB classes on schedule with everything else.  Same kinda for the service/activities, not so much the younger boy instructional work though.  By the time he gets to the Eagle stage, he could have knocked out his 6 service projects before Life so he had more time to work on MB's for Eagle.  I don't see a problem with that, but I don't want to see a boy doing all his young boy teaching while working on Star and then not doing anything more.

 

I just kinda tossed it out there as general topics to be picked apart, not any precise conclusions drawn.

Agreed Stosh.

 

I for me, it is more of a repetition thing. If a scout does all the menu/patrol cooking type requirements for T-FC all at once, then they miss out on the growth potential from the increased complexity of the requirements at each stage and the lessons learned from repeating the basic portions as part of each next level. This is part of why we have FC scouts who dont have FC skills.