Get Ready For New Requirements In Faith

[Stosh]

Most of this is for little "g" god and not big "G" God. We all know that BSA assumes the latter. Do we really think BSA means something other than the Judeo-Christian-Muslim definition?

 

 The Big G, little g issue is tradition only.  Has nothing to do with the language.  When I say the word God/god, no one knows whether my mind capitalizes it or not.

 

The original basis for the Christian/Jewish/Islamic tradition never intends to actual give a proper name (Big G) to their supreme being.  They kinda had problems at first because they didn't know what to call him.  So they came up with "the god of our fathers" and stuff like that.  At least Moses had the gumption to actually ask him his name and he responded, "I am who I am."  Kind of a nice way to saying, it's none of your business and there's a long theological basis for that.  Most people today don't understand the dynamic correctly, at least its not defined correctly in their traditions.

[fred johnson]

Rant warning ....

 

The more I think about this ... I think it's BSA that is failing to due it's duty to God.  Seriously.  I'm not trying to pick a fight or do an intellectual exercise.  

 

No matter the membership rules ...

---- We're still going to have God in the Oath

---- We're still going to have reverent in the Law

---- We're still going to pray before meals, COHs and such

---- We're still going to serve the community and volunteer as we can.

 

Scouting has always had a faith component.  Period.  Fine.  But I can't see where until the last 15 years that it was a membership criteria.

 

So some young men did not develop faith at home.  Isn't it best to keep those young men in a program that regularily exposes them to service, prayer and getting out into nature where it's easiest to conceive of God.  

 

Forcing faith has never worked.  Making rules about reverence and duty to God alienate and subvert.  

 

Duty To God means to serve and have a fellowship with all.  IMHO, BSA is failing Duty To God.

 

I'm Catholic and I've always believed Catholicism was the original evangelical church.  ... Nuns recently shamed church leaders by pointing out they are to help those in need.  Luckily, our new Pope Francis agrees and it has been refreshing.  

 

When will BSA learn this same lesson?  If BSA wants to serve youth and help develop character, citizenship, physical fitness AND faith ... then you serve those who come to you.  You serve.  You don't reject youth because they don't match your Norman Rockwell image of the perfect scout.  You serve.  

 

 

 

.....

 

Sorry for the rant.   ... simply stated ... BSA is being boneheaded.

Edited April 17, 2015 by fred johnson

[Eagledad]

When will BSA learn this same lesson?  If BSA wants to serve youth and help develop character, citizenship, physical fitness AND faith ... then you serve those who come to you.  You serve.  You don't reject youth because they don't match your Norman Rockwell image of the perfect scout.  You serve.  

 

Hi Fred. Trying to understand where you are going, are you just wanting to allow atheist scouts to be Eagles?

 

Barry

[moosetracker]

My memory is failing me.. I know I've been gone for a while, but my memory had Fred being one of those I would have long debates with over my liberal views vs his conservative ones.. Hmmmmm... Must have had the wrong Fred..

 

I have posted 2 links on this thread.. I think they are in conflict with each other on this very point.. But, when I started a post about it, I found the first link was a little more sketchy on what to do with the non-believer scout while the 2nd one basically said "Throw the bum out".. So when I saw it wasn't as black and white a comparison, I scratched the post..

 

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-scouting/     (Oct 3, 2014)

 

Q.  How do you handle advancement when a Scout says he doesn’t believe in God?

A. Bryan, thanks for the opportunity to address this very timely question. The shortest answer is that we should help Scouts and their families come to realize that a belief in God is integral to Scouting and is a key element in character building. This does not reflect a change in BSA policy nor does it place Scouters in the role of religious leaders. (Yadda, Yadda, Yadda)

 

http://www.bsa-discr...god_policy.html   (June 24, 1991)

 

Q. What harm would come of admitting young people who can not support the BSA position on duty to God?

A. The Scout Oath and Law have served as the foundation of Scouting for over 81 years. It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting to allow selective adherence to one or more elements of the Oath or Law. To do so would result in an organization that lacked the clear definition enjoyed by the BSA.

 

So the good thing is the answer that says allow them to stay is the more current statement.. But, if so  then if this view is true then if the statement made in 1991 was ever true, wouldn't that means at some point reflect a change in BSA policy? I know there are debates about how far a scout can advance without a belief, but both these seem to be more about answering the question as to whether you kick them out or let them stay until they figure it out for themselves what they want to do..

Edited April 17, 2015 by moosetracker

[MattR]

I agree with Fred. It's a whole lot easier to have a discussion if Religion of the Rock (Dome of the Rock, anyone?) is allowed. I'd much rather encourage a young man to figure it out on his own or with his family, with no strings attatched. Maybe a scout is sick of hearing fire and brimstone sermons and decides the Milky Way is more peaceful. So he comes up with his own beliefs. Years later, because of his history with scouts, he volunteers and meets a cleric that more closely matches his beliefs and he finds a congregation he likes. Worked for me. Sometimes it just takes faith in the boys.

[Eagledad]

I agree with Fred. It's a whole lot easier to have a discussion if Religion of the Rock (Dome of the Rock, anyone?) is allowed. I'd much rather encourage a young man to figure it out on his own or with his family, with no strings attatched. 

Is that is all about, you want to allow families who believe god is a rock? Shesh, sure bring him in and move on. Unlike the atheist, I can see the oath and law working for him, I think. 

 

That being said, I would have a lot of concern for the mental stability of a scout who had such a belief and I might consider it abuse by the parent who encouraged him. But then, I had experience with very thing while I was a SM, so maybe it's just me.

 

Barry

[TAHAWK]

Must be mind-bending to deal with BSA behavior - actions - and BSA words that are inconsistent with some of BSA's other words.

 

One definition of "religion" is worship of a supreme deity.  As with "reverent" in BSA-speak, there are others definitions that do not include a supreme deity.  

 

Barry, atheist Scouts have been making Eagle for generations, and not just in troops that follow atheistic religions.  

 

http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs/Buddhist.aspx

 

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jun/30/local/me-64995

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=Af0DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Buddhist+eagle+scout&source=bl&ots=xWQrcT1AIy&sig=Ix8Hoknzsdl6E1rhFIzUXmHvdxg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jUcxVfKLIfeNsQS6q4HYBA&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Buddhist%20eagle%20scout&f=false

 

These Scouts understand:  

Edited April 17, 2015 by packsaddle
Corrected the mispelling of 'Barry', mostly to see if I could do it.

[packsaddle]

I'm quite aware of objects that are and have been considered by some as Holy. The Toomer's Oaks, for example, at Auburn were the site of all manner of rituals during football worship. And when someone killed them and was caught (they were poisoned by Harvey Updike), he was sentenced among other things, to pay restitution in the amount of $800,000.00. That was some pretty expensive firewood. 

Some thoughtless person damaged a rock that was/is an object of worship at Clemson University (Howard's Rock) which was nothing more than a chunk of quartzite that you can pick up lots of places around the country for free. The value of the damage to that rock was estimated at over $10,000.00. 

So there are a couple of idols for the 'Church of Holy Faith in the Football Team': One in the form of a tree and the other an actual rock. I suspect there are other such examples, maybe somewhere there's a Holy Feather of Faith or something. 

Isn't Mount Rushmore supposedly a holy site for the Lakota? That's a pretty big rock, I'd say. Wonder how much the damage we did to that one is worth?

Edited April 17, 2015 by packsaddle

[Rick_in_CA]

Regardless of what the BSA says they mean, the language they actually use is Judeo-Christian (“belief in God†with God as a singular proper name). So it shouldn’t be surprising when we run into scouts and scouters that are confused. The language dates back to the beginning of the BSA and comes from a time when religious pluralism usually meant “we allow Catholics and Jewsâ€.

As a society, the United States (and most other western countries) have grown since then to recognize that pluralism means a lot more than that. We ended Jim Crow (at least officially), it’s illegal to fire someone or deny them housing for being Catholic, the federal government is no longer taking native american children from their families to “Christianize them†(or trying to stamp out their native languages), etc.. The early 20th century was in many ways a different place than today. In some ways the BSA was actually pretty liberal for 1911.

I think it’s time for the BSA to update their language to make it more clear. Perhaps replace “Duty to God†with something like “Duty to your Faithâ€. My understanding is that the original DRP was written by James West and the current one is largely unchanged from that. If the BSA wants to be “absolutely nonsectarian†they need to put it up front. Of course that will offend those that believe the BSA is (or should be) a Christians first club.

[Stosh]

Never said traditions couldn't have a price tag on them once they get to court.  

 

Burn down a barn vs. burn down a church?  Probably find out which tradition creates the biggest stir.

 

Pedophile old man down the street vs. pedophile pastor of the local church.... I'll have to think about that one for a while.  Really a close call.

 

Burn down a building.... pedophile person.... Put a coat of religious tradition on it and voila, one has a whole new ballgame. 

[DuctTape]

If we go back to the early days of scouting, the handbook is quite clear. Ones duty to god is demonstrated by actions. Helping others, doing a good turn daily, etc... Reverence and duty to god were not explained by the scout in terms of his belief system, but demonstrated by his actions.

[Eagledad]

If we go back to the early days of scouting, the handbook is quite clear. Ones duty to god is demonstrated by actions. Helping others, doing a good turn daily, etc... Reverence and duty to god were not explained by the scout in terms of his belief system, but demonstrated by his actions.

Who measured those actions (or lack there of) and what were they measure against?

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

Most of this is for little "g" god and not big "G" God. We all know that BSA assumes the latter. Do we really think BSA means something other than the Judeo-Christian-Muslim definition?

 

I don't know what the BSA (which after all, is just a bunch of people, and an ever-changing cast of characters at the top since 1910) actually means, but I do know what meaning has been applied and enforced by National in the time I have been following the subject (roughly the past 15 years), and it is NOT limited to the "Judeo-Christian-Muslim definition."  (I think you would even get some argument about whether there IS a "Judeo-Christian-Muslim definition", but let's leave that aside.)  In my opinion, the word "God" is used because that was the word everybody was using in 1910-11 when the DRP was being written, and they don't want to change it because that would open up a can of worms.  (I agree with Rick-in-CA that they SHOULD change it.)  I think the BSA's current attitude is, if a Hindu or a Buddhist or a Zoroastrian or a Deist or a believer in the Great Spirit, or whoever else, is willing to pledge to do his best to do his duty to God, the BSA is not going to worry about what the person is really thinking when they say the word "God."

[MattR]

Is that is all about, you want to allow families who believe god is a rock? Shesh, sure bring him in and move on. Unlike the atheist, I can see the oath and law working for him, I think. 

 

That being said, I would have a lot of concern for the mental stability of a scout who had such a belief and I might consider it abuse by the parent who encouraged him. But then, I had experience with very thing while I was a SM, so maybe it's just me.

 

Barry

 

Of course it's silly, but it's a start. I honestly doubt if a boy will look at a rock and say that's god. More likely he'll look across the ocean, or a mountain valley, or the Milky Way, and say there must be something. I'd say that's a great place to be.

 

While I don't like the Rock or the Meatball, not accepting it puts us in the position of judging the beliefs of others. Given that religion can be such a long journey, I don't see judging a young man's beliefs as helping him if he's just getting started.

[LeCastor]

Statements by Lord Baden-Powell

 

"The Scout, in his promise, undertakes to do his duty to his king and country only in the second place; his first duty is to God. It is with this idea before us and recognizing that God is the one Father of us all, that we Scouts count ourselves a brotherhood despite the difference among us of country, creed, or class. We realize that in addition to the interests of our particular country, there is a higher mission before us, namely the promotion of the Kingdom of God; That is, the rule of Peace and Goodwill on earth. In the Scouts each form of religion is respected and its active practice encouraged and through the spread of our brotherhood in all countries, we have the opportunity in developing the spirit of mutual good will and understanding.

 

"There is no religious "side" of the movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realization and service of God.

 

"Let us, therefore, in training our Scouts, keep the higher aims in the forefront, not let ourselves get too absorbed in the steps. Don't let the technical outweigh the moral. Field efficiency, back woodsmanship, camping, hiking, Good Turns, jamboree comradeship are all means, not the end. The end is CHARACTER with a purpose.

 

"Our objective in the Scouting movement is to give such help as we can in bringing about God's Kingdom on earth by including among youth the spirit and the daily practice in their lives of unselfish goodwill and cooperation."

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/Relationships/ScoutSabbathServices/badenpowell.aspx

 

All the bold, italics and underlining is mine 

Edited April 17, 2015 by LeCastor