Get Ready For New Requirements In Faith

[LeCastor]

 

The naysayers here color this issue as a scary monster waiting to jump a scout and make him cry, but in reality it's one of the easiest subjects for adults because you aren't looking for any specific answer. We just are guides toward reflecting to their experience of the oath and law. However, don't ignore the subject completely because he would feel ambushed at the EBOR. 

 

It is strange to me that folks take this to the dark extreme, but I take comfort in that many of the forum participants here are not typical of the real world scouters. Still, from my experience demonstrating Scouting Spirit is the number one cause of families deferring to Council and National for their son's Eagle when the unit refuses to approve the scout. Scout Spirit is pretty important, but I found that usually the blame of these differences are caused by the SM because they neglected guiding the scout on the subject. That is why it is important for the SM to be thorough in reviewing a scout over the years along with the BOR. They are a check on each other and can save a lot of hassle from the scout who doesn't appear worthy and shows up at the SM's door with a lawyer. Scouts should get a review of all the points of the law and oath sometime in his scouting career.

 

Barry

 

Barry, I don't necessarily disagree with you that this might be blown out of proportion.  However, I'm curious about the bold quote above.  Could you clarify?

[Eagledad]

Barry, I don't necessarily disagree with you that this might be blown out of proportion.  However, I'm curious about the bold quote above.  Could you clarify?

Some here have a different agenda than having a reasonable discussion on the different subjects. It seems popular lately to make up analogies or use rare examples for the purpose of categorizing whole groups in a negative light to make their own point look strong. If it were really that strong or valid, it would stand on it's own without having to demonize others.

 

I realize that many times we react to quickly our emotions instead of patiently thinking out a more plausible response that doesn't attack others. But if we can't live by the guidelines of the law here, how can we set the example in front of the scouts?

 

Barry

[LeCastor]

Some here have a different agenda than having a reasonable discussion on the different subjects. It seems popular lately to make up analogies or use rare examples for the purpose of categorizing whole groups in a negative light to make their own point look strong. If it were really that strong or valid, it would stand on it's own without having to demonize others.

 

I realize that many times we react to quickly our emotions instead of patiently thinking out a more plausible response that doesn't attack others. But if we can't live by the guidelines of the law here, how can we set the example in front of the scouts?

 

Barry

 

Ok, I agree that topics can get heated and sometimes it's easy to make attacks on others.  But I would argue that all Scouters on this forum are, in fact, "real world Scouters."  

 

You are correct, Barry.  We should all be examples to the youth.  But we should especially be good examples to each other.  

[DuctTape]

I do not see participants here using specific examples as categorizing entire groups.

 

If there exists one example of a scouter, or a troop acting in a negative manner, it is one to many.

 

Just because it may be rare, doesnt mean we should be silent about it, instead we should be cautious about any changes which some might interpret as justification for said behaviors.

[TAHAWK]

Thank you, LeCaster.

 

DT, as we are imperfect, there will be those who are imperfect - always assuming we are qualified to define perfection.

 

It has been my honor to sit on dozens of EBORs.  I have yet to observe any member who seemed to be trying to get a candidate in a position to "fail."  

[NJCubScouter]

 

But the fact is that there are many SM's who do not discuss the subject of "Duty to God" in SMC's, and I am pretty sure my troop's SM is one of them.

Are you sure about that? Ask him and report back to us to how he advises duty to God.

 

I am trying "nested quoting" here for the first time, let's see if it works.

 

Barry, first of all, when you tell me that I am to do something, I'm sure you meant to say please, you being courteous and all, so I'm reading it as if the word "please" was in there.

 

Second, I said I was "pretty sure," and you then asked me if I was "sure." I don't know what else to tell you. I am probably, oh let's say about 95 percent sure that our SM does not talk to Scouts about their duty to God or the degree to which they are "reverent", in any sense. I have heard him say that "religion is a matter for the family" or words to that effect. I have sat in with him on several SMC's when the conference had to be held in a separate room from everybody else due to practical reasons, and a third person was needed in the room. I have known the guy for more than 10 years. I feel safe in saying that he does not discuss this subject with the Scouts, nor is he interested in doing so. And I can't imagine that he is the only SM in the country for whom that is true.

[moosetracker]

Eagledad is calling us abby-normal....

 

If you think taking fabricated examples, or one time examples to make a case is something only scouters on this board do... Let me invite you to some of our committee meetings which can be knock-down drag-out and also some of our scout parents...  It really is not an abnormality of the scouters on this board to use this technic when arguing passionately for their case..

 

So I consider scouters on this board to be quite normal to the scouts, scouters and scout parents that I meet in person.  I therefore unclassify us as abby-normal..

[NJCubScouter]

As for scouts who aren't sure, be careful not to confuse "I never thought about it" with "I'm not sure there is a god".

You are correct that they are different, although there are those Scouts who, after having thought about it, are not sure. (Leaving aside the philosophical question of whether any of us can be really "sure" - hey, there's that word again - in matters of faith.) And then (to go back to my example, though I realize that in this section you were not responding to me) there are those who, after thinking about it, "don't know." One might suspect that the BSA would have more of a problem with "don't know" than "not sure," although I have never seen a definitive statement from the BSA as to whether either one or both are "acceptable" or "not acceptable."

 

Which is one of the reasons I think this new requirement could cause a problem. It is inevitably going to increase the frequency with which a Scoutmaster learns that one or more of his Scouts (after having thought about the subject) isn't sure whether there's a God, or doesn't know, or isn't particularly concerned one way or the other, or any of a number of other gradations of thought. After verifying that the Scout has thought about it, and still gives one of the answers I have mentioned, what is the Scoutmaster supposed to do about it? And I mean, not necessarily what do we here think he/she is supposed to do about it, but what does National think he/she is supposed to do about it? And are they going to tell the SM's what they are supposed to do, or leave it up to every SM in the country to take a guess?

[Eagledad]

I am trying "nested quoting" here for the first time, let's see if it works.

 

Barry, first of all, when you tell me that I am to do something, I'm sure you meant to say please, you being courteous and all, so I'm reading it as if the word "please" was in there.

 

Second, I said I was "pretty sure," and you then asked me if I was "sure." I don't know what else to tell you. I am probably, oh let's say about 95 percent sure that our SM does not talk to Scouts about their duty to God or the degree to which they are "reverent", in any sense. I have heard him say that "religion is a matter for the family" or words to that effect. I have sat in with him on several SMC's when the conference had to be held in a separate room from everybody else due to practical reasons, and a third person was needed in the room. I have known the guy for more than 10 years. I feel safe in saying that he does not discuss this subject with the Scouts, nor is he interested in doing so. And I can't imagine that he is the only SM in the country for whom that is true.

All good points, thank you. Still I am curious, would you please ask you friend his opinion of god in scouting and if he has ever referenced the subject to a scout. 

 

Around here religion is part of life and not a scary thing. Not even to atheist parents, of which we have had several. I have worked with scouts of many religions including Wicca, but again it wasn't a problem because it is personal to the scout and his family. We only need to mention that spirituality is part of the oath and law and let them figure it out.

 

Barry

[NJCubScouter]

And by the way, I have participated in probably more than 50 BOR's at the troop level (Tenderfoot through Life) and 15 or so EBOR's (at which there is always one board member from another unit or from the district) and I have never once heard any board member ask any Scout about how he does his Duty to God or shows reverence. (Well, and whatever the number is, I could add four to that, as I was the Scout at BOR's for 2nd Class through Life, and was never asked that question either.) It is a legitimate BOR question, but I have never heard it asked.

[Eagledad]

 It really is not an abnormality of the scouters on this board to use this technic when arguing passionately for their case..

 

 

I agree and I think it is a  wrong unscout-like behavior that can verge on bullying. I expect adults should be capable of carrying on an honest mature discussion without insinuation and derogatory dialog.

 

Long term influence of a mind should be a result of logical processing of facts or reason, not intimidation or knee-jerk expressions of emotion. 

 

I also believe these techniques are why this forum has such a low active membership the last few years.

 

Barry

[Gone]

Anyway in my search I stumbled upon this piece, which is a blog in the Scouting magazine so maybe it was in the actual magazine and other of you have seen it, but I thought it addressed a lot of what we have been discussing.. First seems that it is not unusual for our EBOR to discuss Reverent or duty to God, so Mozart's concern that we are breaking a rule and retesting, do not seem to be shared by BSA.. 

 

No, my concern was that by asking about a belief in God you are asking a private question designed to find out if a boy believes in God or is religious. My point was that if you ask one private question designed to see if a boy is in violation of BSA rules, why not another personal question (e.g., "Are you sexually active? Do you do drugs? Have you stolen anything? When's the last time you lied?, etc.) Any of those questions are just as valid as "Do you believe in God" and the answer could also easily disqualify a Scout for Eagle....just as a negative answer about belief in God could. That's my point.

 

On the "Declaration of Religious Principle", I am willing to bet a LARGE portion of people do not know this exists. I'd bet they certainly don't review it with their Scout, nor do they likely understand that it means if you are Shinto and not Christian and you sign the application you are likely violating this part of the BSA Bylaws. 

[Gone]

 

 

I am probably, oh let's say about 95 percent sure that our SM does not talk to Scouts about their duty to God or the degree to which they are "reverent", in any sense. I have heard him say that "religion is a matter for the family" or words to that effect. I have sat in with him on several SMC's when the conference had to be held in a separate room from everybody else due to practical reasons, and a third person was needed in the room. I have known the guy for more than 10 years. I feel safe in saying that he does not discuss this subject with the Scouts, nor is he interested in doing so. And I can't imagine that he is the only SM in the country for whom that is true.

 

EXACTLY!!!

 

We discuss how the scout is reverent and other issues, and we may discuss their duty to a higher power, but we don't specifically ask about God or religion. Most units I know in my area are like this.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Mozartbrau

[Rick_in_CA]

On the "Declaration of Religious Principle", I am willing to bet a LARGE portion of people do not know this exists. I'd bet they certainly don't review it with their Scout, nor do they likely understand that it means if you are Shinto and not Christian and you sign the application you are likely violating this part of the BSA Bylaws. 

I also bet a large number of people also don't realize that the DRP they are agreeing to subscribe too isn't even printed on the form (an excerpt is).

[moosetracker]

On the "Declaration of Religious Principle", I am willing to bet a LARGE portion of people do not know this exists. I'd bet they certainly don't review it with their Scout, nor do they likely understand that it means if you are Shinto and not Christian and you sign the application you are likely violating this part of the BSA Bylaws. 

 

So why don't you like the Shinto scout?? To be honest, I never heard of Shinto and so had to look it up and BSA's view to it from all I see, BSA is OK with it, so why aren't you?

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/faiths/index.htm

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Membership/ReligiousDates.aspx   - do a search for Shinto, it is on the BSA Calendar, but a word in the midst of yadda-yadda

 

Also there is a audio/book, that says it BSA Shinto, but not sure if that BSA is really OUR BSA or the letters stand for something else.

http://www.gadgetsandpresents.com/blksn6203.html