Get Ready For New Requirements In Faith

[TAHAWK]

All sorts of folks, with or without any factual or logical basis, create lists.  But I try to help.  Here is Buddhism on a list of atheistic religions http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/p/AtheistReligion.htm

 

And I gave three links to lists of one religion, Buddhism, created by Buddhists, that say they have no supreme deity.

[AZMike]

Packsaddle - No idea. I presume I'm at about a median of intelligence, so some scouters will be better than me, some worse. We'll probably muddle through as we always do.

 

I think most people involved in Scouting want to give a boy every chance he can, so I don't think this will suddenly cause a new Inquisition or anything. Faith is a big part of most people's lives, but it's become kind of a taboo to bring it up in polite face-to-face conversation (other than on the Internet, of course, where we obsess over it.) We are happier discussing the latest diet fad or sports scores or a celebrity breakup than mentioning religion, which is (or should be) a bigger part of most people's lives than all that. I don't have a problem with discussing it in an SMC, as long as it is done in a civil and respectful manner and we avoid proselytizing for a particular denomination in a setting where it is inappropriate (as in Scouting). I don't think it is necessary to avoid discussing an important part of life to avoid discussing faith out of fear of inadvertently "outing" a potential Eagle Scout as an atheist.  

 

I hope that by the time a scouter reaches adulthood, he should know how to have a simple discussion about spiritual matters with a boy without getting into denominational issues or being offensive. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't see it as a big problem.

 

I've had a few scouts mention some doubts or sticking points they have about God in relaxed settings around a campfire, but they were usually the kind of issues that kids come up with (like "If God created everything, who created God?" or "If God can do anything, can He make a rock so big He can't pick it up?) I usually just mention that those are problems a lot of people have discussed over the centuries, bring up some reasons why I personally don't think they are insurmountable, and leave it at that. Most have never heard those responses before and didn't even think that anyone else had thought about them, and they seemed to satisfy them. I dealt with them in a way that would be appropriate for any denomination, and emphasized that they were my personal opinion. I've never heard any scout every bring up sectarian issues (with one exception, if you could call it that, which kind of required an answer.)

 

Yeah, the Presbyterians in America are cratering. 34,000 Black churches that were in fellowship with PCUSA just broke ties off with them over their recent changes in doctrine. Like many denominations, they will probably find a social niche based on their new beliefs, but I doubt they will ever have the numbers they once had. Just my opinion.

Edited April 20, 2015 by AZMike

[AZMike]

double post, sorry.

Edited April 20, 2015 by AZMike

[packsaddle]

Oh boy! I think that is the first double post for the new forums. Nice to see there's still a little fallability in the software, lol.

As for my old church, if black people had observed what I observed back then, the split might have happened a lot sooner...for different reasons of course. I'm willing to accept the possibility that there was church-to-church variation and mine might have been more than a standard deviation away from the mean...if you know what I mean.

Edited April 20, 2015 by packsaddle

[TAHAWK]

I found these two letters that I thought y'all might find interesting.

 

1. 

 

"From: Victor Iwamura

To: Graham Holland

 

You bring up an interesting topic.  The BSA in the USA is predominantly
a Christian organization and have strong support by them.  As Buddhists
in the BSA, we have told our Scouts that they may substitute or be
silent when it comes to saying "under God".  We are trying to influence
the powers that be here but it is a difficult struggle.  I am going to
the BSA meeting in October and will mention to them what you do.

 

Victor Iwamura, Chair
National Buddhist Committee on Scouting

 

2.

From: Victor Iwamura
To: Graham Holland

 

I tell them when it's not comfortable with them.

 

 

BTW:  My only minor victory was when the PRAY organization which
handles the religious awards was developing a religious patch for BSA,
they were calling it "Duty to God".  I objected and got consensus from
the BSA Religious Committee and we agreed to "A Scout is Reverend" or A
Scout is Faithful".  The chair went and discussed it with others and
they decided to keep the Title and work it outside the  BSA sponsorship
and promote it under PRAY. Basically the circumvented the decision by
the committee and did it their way anyhow.

 

Victor Iwamura, Chair
National Buddhist Committee on Scouting

 

Not sure of the date, but Mr. Iwamura still listed by BSA as the Chair of the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting.

He is the President of the Sanmateo Buddhist Temple

[AZMike]

Oh boy! I think that is the first double post for the new forums. Nice to see there's still a little fallability in the software, lol.

As for my old church, if black people had observed what I observed back then, the split might have happened a lot sooner...for different reasons of course. I'm willing to accept the possibility that there was church-to-church variation and mine might have been more than a standard deviation away from the mean...if you know what I mean.

 I think the fault lay not in the software but in me. I hit the quote button instead of the edit button. It's like the old tombstone said:

 

Here lies the body 

of Jonathan Blake.

Hit the gas

Instead of the brake.

[TAHAWK]

He was right,

 

dead right,

 

as he sped along,

 

But he's just as dead

 

as if he'd been wrong.

 

Burma Shave.

[AZMike]

Don't stick your arm

 

Out too far

 

It may go home

 

In another car.

 

Burma Shave!

[moosetracker]

My husband had someone in his family lost part of his arm that way.. I never met him, but to be sure, no one in his family stuck their arm out the window too far when driving on tight single lane roads.

 

TAHAWK - Sorry if you felt I was doubting you by my comment.. More I was just questioning why the list didn't mention them.

 

AZMike - very true that religion has become taboo, unless you know you are with people of your own faith. Just something hit by the polarization of the times on several topics.

Edited April 20, 2015 by moosetracker

[NJCubScouter]

It's interesting... the verbiage used by the BSA.

 

"On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my Country."  Okay, where's the statement of faith there?  The scout states that his understanding of God is what other people have told him.  That means doing a good turn daily falls into what those people are saying.  Servant Leadership falls into that scope, respecting other peoples' religious beliefs is part of it, being morally straight is part as well.  

 

Where does the wording state the scout has to believe anything?   As long as he is reverent towards other and does the beneficial, helping things wile being moral, he has it covered.

So are you saying the BSA does not actually require Scouts and leaders to have a belief in God or some other higher power? I wish you would let the people at National know that, because they don't seem to have gotten the memo. Every statement, resolution, legal brief and anything else coming out of National either explicitly states that the Oath and Law require a belief in God (or a higher power), or is based on that assumption.

 

Maybe all this is the BSA trying to get out ahead of any atheists meddling in the policies of the BSA, kinda like the pro-homosexual factions.

Well, if the Oath and Law don't really require "belief," where's the policy in the first place?

 

Your use of the word "meddle" is amusing. I am sure that if we were talking about a policy change that you believed in, you wouldn't be using the word "meddle." It's only "meddling" when someone else is advocating something.

[Stosh]

So are you saying the BSA does not actually require Scouts and leaders to have a belief in God or some other higher power? I wish you would let the people at National know that, because they don't seem to have gotten the memo. Every statement, resolution, legal brief and anything else coming out of National either explicitly states that the Oath and Law require a belief in God (or a higher power), or is based on that assumption.

 

Okay, here's the rub.  I'm under 18 years of age, living in my parents house and they go to church every Sunday and I have to go along if I am to get my allowance for that week.  I don't believe in god, but I can honestly say I "Do my duty to God"" by showing up every Sunday for church.  As a pastor who has taught a lot of Confirmation classes, I know this is not a stretch example.  This is quite common for this age.  National might think itself to  be a "religious"  organization, but it can't define it any other way than vaguely, which it does quite well.  Therefore doing one's duty doesn't need faith to qualify for youth of this age.

 

 

Well, if the Oath and Law don't really require "belief," where's the policy in the first place?

 

The Policy is the result of traditional verbiage used over the past 100+ years in Scouting.  As we all know, policies don't need to make sense.

 

Your use of the word "meddle" is amusing. I am sure that if we were talking about a policy change that you believed in, you wouldn't be using the word "meddle." It's only "meddling" when someone else is advocating something.

 

​You are correct, I used the word "meddling" because the outside factions wishing to impose their will on the BSA are doing it out of a sense of a political agenda, not a religious one.  Intolerance is not a religious issue it is a political issue.  Meddling in other peoples' affairs requires nothing on my part except a desire to restrict the freedom of others.  If someone wants to believe the sky is red, green, purple, yellow, black, orange, grey, or whatever (which on occasion is true) then what difference does it make to me if I think it's blue unless I wish to meddle in the affairs of others?  Intolerant people only wish to make up rules that others have to follow.  

 

Explain to me how  Blue Spruce, Red Cedar, White Cedars  trees can be part of  the EverGREEN classification?  I think that our education system is flawed and that teaching our children incorrect verbiage is destroying the system.  I think the children from first grade on should have to refer to these trees by their proper Latin classifications.

 

Ain't politics fun?  Stupd, but fun?  

 

 

Edited April 20, 2015 by Stosh

[fred johnson]

 

 

 

Agreed.  That is the very common example.   Very common.   But then again, attending church is not required either.  So ... IMHO ... all these elaborated requirements are doing is pushing people away from scouting and removing a foundation that helps people find their faith in the future.  

 

BSA is being self-destructive with these new requirements. 

[Eagledad]

Agreed.  That is the very common example.   Very common.   But then again, attending church is not required either.  So ... IMHO ... all these elaborated requirements are doing is pushing people away from scouting and removing a foundation that helps people find their faith in the future.  

 

BSA is being self-destructive with these new requirements. 

I'm still trying to understand your point in all this,

 

So again, are you just wanting to allow atheist to be Eagles? 

 

Do you know someone that quit scouting because of the elaborate requirements?

 

And, have you considered that taking god out of scouting would drive more families away than the families you say leave because of the god part in scouting?

 

I'm just curious because to me this is a big over reaction to nothing. But I will respect that you just don't like god in scouting.

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

I guess I must ask the right question because that the second time with no answer.

 

My grandpa used to say, lets just shuck this down to the cob, shall we. Did I reach the cob?

 

Barry

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I'm going to convert to Scientology just to make BSA's head spin on the whole "God" and religion issue.

 

Go Thetans!!! Beat Xenu!!! 

 

There have been Scientology units for years:

 

Troop 0313 Church Of Scientology

210 S Fort Harrison Ave  

Clearwater,FL,33756

 

Troop 0555 Delphi Academy

11341 Brainard Ave  

Lake View Terrace,CA,91342

 

http://www.delphitroop555.org/troop555/

 

Also, just as a comment, I recall a few years back how nearly everyone insisted that a Taoist who is also an atheist wouldn't ever have any problems being in the BSA.