Get Ready For New Requirements In Faith

[Stosh]

It's interesting... the verbiage used by the BSA.

 

"On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my Country."  Okay, where's the statement of faith there?  The scout states that his understanding of God is what other people have told him.  That means doing a good turn daily falls into what those people are saying.  Servant Leadership falls into that scope, respecting other peoples' religious beliefs is part of it, being morally straight is part as well.  

 

Where does the wording state the scout has to believe anything?   As long as he is reverent towards other and does the beneficial, helping things wile being moral, he has it covered.

 

Maybe all this is the BSA trying to get out ahead of any atheists meddling in the policies of the BSA, kinda like the pro-homosexual factions.

[moosetracker]

There have been child molesters in BSA in the past.. I am sure there are child molesters in BSA now, I still don't look at every scouter in BSA with the presumption that they are a child molester.. Same thing with this.. You can not presume everyone is doing it wrong, because of a few examples that some are doing it wrong..  I will give you a nod that if I lived in the Bible belt, rather then in the Northeast, my view would probably be more fearing a 50/50 mix of those doing it wrong to those working hard to do it right.. I do not know where you live, but that may be where the difference of our perception comes from.

 

My retest was on something that IS a retest, asking a boy to tie a knot, or  to explain how to do CPR is retesting and a no-no.. Asking the scout to discuss their best camping trip, How they are fulfilling their position of Responsibility, Why do they think physical fitness is important in BSA, or if they have done anything recently to fulfill his Duty to God, are all questions that are not a retest... YOU took my bringing up retesting for something that is a retest (knot tying) , and moved it to the question about fulfilling the 12 pts of the law calling that question a retest, when it is not a retest and I never said it was..

 

I started out in a troop that taught us to give BOR's that were very tough and full of retesting.. And the more the adults thought the scout unworthy the tougher they would be with him on the board.. It was not uncommon to fail a scout 3 or 4 times before the board would pass them... When I went to training about the right way to perform a BOR I had a hard time excepting it, I saw ALL the questions as pretty thin in content and it took me a long time to accept that a BOR was not a pass/fail.. That ALL questions asked were ones that they could not possibly fail..  The one on religion (short of professing atheism, just fits equally in with all other questions a BOR can ask.)...  

 

Once we moved to a troop who did Boards right I only saw two boys (not told they failed, but rather told it would be better to put the board off until next week.)  Once when the boy came without uniform and was wearing his baseball uniform instead, and once when the boy was so flustered he couldn't answer anything, and he was spiraling downward every time he stumbled over himself, he got more self-conscious and more uptight, and no matter how the adults tried to put him at ease it was just a lost cause.. Both came back the next week and did a terrific job..

[moosetracker]

It's interesting... the verbiage used by the BSA.

 

"On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my Country."  Okay, where's the statement of faith there?  The scout states that his understanding of God is what other people have told him.  That means doing a good turn daily falls into what those people are saying.  Servant Leadership falls into that scope, respecting other peoples' religious beliefs is part of it, being morally straight is part as well.  

 

Where does the wording state the scout has to believe anything?   As long as he is reverent towards other and does the beneficial, helping things wile being moral, he has it covered.

 

Maybe all this is the BSA trying to get out ahead of any atheists meddling in the policies of the BSA, kinda like the pro-homosexual factions.

 

When we were in Cub Scouts being reverent of others beliefs was all I thought someone needed to meet reverent.. Somewhere when my son was in BS I read the BSA expectation for reverent..

 

A Scout is Reverent.

He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion.

 

Then also duty to God - means expecting you to do your duty to God..

 

And that is why BSA can state that you can not just be an atheist who respects the religious beliefs of others..

 

But you are right - If you are following the other 11 points of the scout law, chances are you are probably doing your duty to God (or what you decide is your higher power).. I have posted time & time again, the scouts can easily skirt around getting into the nitty gritty of their religious belief by simply stating what he believes is expected of him in his religion and address some of his actions to prove he has tried hard to do his duty to God.. 

 

Of course this is if the Board has been given the correct training on how to approach the question.. At which point you get down to the current argument of how much trust do you put in your fellow scouter to approach the question on a sliding scale of 1 to 10.. with 1 being absolutely no trust at all  and with 10 being having total trust in your fellow scouter..  I probably come in at a 7 ..  EagleDad is somewhere higher on the scale then me, and Packsaddle & Mozart are definitely lower on the scale then me.

   

[Stosh]

I'm thinking that at the age of my scouts, I don't think there are many who are really atheists.  Agnostics?  Yes, but not really into the faith system that believes for sure there is no god.  Of course then there are the agnostics that doubt the reality of god and then there are those who genuinely don't know.  Knowing and relying on thought processes eliminates any concept of belief.

 

The only person who does not have a faith system working for them are the agnostics.  Theists believe there is a god.  Atheists believe there is no god, and an agnostic has no faith awareness either way. Atheists like to think there is no god, but without proof, they need to rely on a faith/belief system to justify their lack of knowledge.  Believers do the same thing in reverse.

[TAHAWK]

"And that is why BSA can state that you can not just be an atheist who respects the religious beliefs of others."

 

But you can be an adherent to an atheistic religion that respects the religious beliefs of others.

[moosetracker]

"And that is why BSA can state that you can not just be an atheist who respects the religious beliefs of others."

 

But you can be an adherent to an atheistic religion that respects the religious beliefs of others.

 

That is very confusing BUT very true...  Because you follow a religious practice (just guessing)???...

[scoutldr]

"He is reverent toward God." ... how does that apply to those who have no monotheistic "God" ?  Wiccans and Buddhists come to mind. (forgive my ignorance)

[moosetracker]

"He is reverent toward God." ... how does that apply to those who have no monotheistic "God" ?  Wiccans and Buddhists come to mind. (forgive my ignorance)

 

I was just looking into atheists religions.. This may be a little more complicated (I will get back to that.)

 

Wiccans although do not have a God, seems they have gods

Wicca is typically duotheistic, worshipping a god and goddess traditionally viewed as a mother goddess and horned god. These two deities are sometimes viewed as facets of a greater pantheistic godhead.

 

 

Buddist also give a nod to god or gods.

Some Buddhist schools have many Gods, others have none. But it would be wrong to say that Buddhism itself teaches atheism, pantheism, or any other position on gods and deities. Gods are the conception of a particular time and culture, and may be used more or less wisely in the development of one’s spiritual practice

 

 

 

So anyway, I went looking for a list of non-theist beliefs and I found that one on the list BSA I guess has said "No" to and consider them to be atheists.. The Humanists, the belief is summarized as follows.

a philosophy which in most cases embraces Agnosticism or Atheistic belief about the non-existence of a deity. But it goes further to create moral and ethical systems based upon reason and logic. It regards humanity as the measure of all things. Humanists emphasize the importance of doing good in society.

 

 

But this article sort of shows that BSA rejected humanist and they had a legal tussle similar to atheists.. http://americanhumanist.org/news/details/2010-06-humanists-dismayed-with-philadelphia-boy-scouts-Verdi  ... Perhaps the rejection is because they decided to go up against BSA and argue for inclusion of all atheists and also homosexuals??

 

Here is the page with a list on non-theist beliefs..  I don't know if anyone else can pick out which ones 'are OK' or 'are not ok' per BSA..  And it opens up the question of if you belong to the religion of the rock.. What will make your rock approved or not approved per BSA???

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/at_ag_hu.htm

 

[TAHAWK]

In theory, and in practice based on Buddhists I have known, they are atheists.  No God.  No gods. No one to hear prayers.

 

A Buddhist was my tent-mate for slightly over two years.  Until that experience, I thought Buddha was the god for Buddhists.  Wrong.  He is venerated as an example of the supremely enlighten person and guide to correct thought and behavior.

 

Given the low barriers to enrty, I am sure you can find someone saying Buddhists have a god, but even then see if this "god" is a creator deity.

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/5minbud.htm

 

http://www.aboutbuddhism.org/

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda03.htm

[NJCubScouter]

Humanists emphasize the importance of doing good in society.

And the BSA wouldn't want to associate itself with a godless, heathen idea like doing good in society, right?

 

Hey, wait...

 

[Rick_in_CA]

That is very confusing BUT very true...  Because you follow a religious practice (just guessing)???...

I think it's because the people at national that said "no atheists" (because atheists are “bad" and think all religion is stupid), had no idea that many Buddhists (and others) are atheists (they are a religion so they can’t be atheists right?).

 

As I was told by someone from National a while back, the people that really care about keeping out the atheists have no clue that there are atheistic religions, and don’t really understand what an atheist is.

[AZMike]

It gets more complicated once we get into the theological weeds. Not every adherent of a religious faith necessarily believes in God (about 1% don't), and about 1 out of 5 atheists do believe in God or some kind of universal spirit. That seems more than a little counter-intuitive, but it is what it is. The same rate of belief shows up in atheists in both the Pew and GIS surveys.

 

 

For what it's worth, about 1 in 5 atheists also believe in some kind of an afterlife:

 

 

One of the possibilities is that atheism has many denominations, just as theism does, and because a boy may be flirting with atheism, or what he thinks it is, he may not have the same conception of "atheism" that members of the "New Atheism" movement typically have - a methodological bias towards materialism and naturalism that denies any supernatural (or hypermundane, or whatever you want to call it) component to reality, that is often linked to a somewhat antagonistic outlook toward organized religion.

 

In fact, however, we also find that a substantial minority (a little over a quarter) of self-identified atheists find religion "very," "somewhat," or "not too" important in their lives, so they are probably not all miniature Christopher Hitchens (although they could mean that it is important because they consider it to have a negative impact on their lives, but given the other stats cited above, that's less likely):

 

 

If atheism is defined as most atheists insist it should be - a simple lack of faith in a god or gods - it can still include beliefs in all kinds of supernatural concepts, including karma, pantheism, reincarnation, and so forth. These are beliefs which many faiths that are accepted within the BSA hold, so if a scout announces that he thinks he may be an atheist in a board, it might be worth (for his own sake) asking him to describe some of his beliefs, in manner consistent with respect and his personal dignity.

 

It's also a pretty common finding that the boy who is questioning his faith today (and who among us hasn't?) is probably - actually, statistically likely - to develop a stronger faith as he enters adulthood. If we avoid the error of static analysis and look at both the rates of people entering and people leaving belief systems, atheists have the lowest retention rate (assuming we define no belief in God, or a belief there is no good - there's a semantic issue there - as a "faith"). Only 30% of kids raised as atheists still define themselves as such in adulthood. So I'm not sure if pushing a boy out of scouts who is simply raising questions or some doubts about God (especially given the poor state of catechesis in many denominations) is such a good thing.  The psychological studies of atheists that have been done tend to point towards a loss of faith (if there was a previous religious upbringing) during adolescence. I would give some credence to the idea that for many, that won't be a lifelong turning away from religion.

 

Edited April 19, 2015 by AZMike

[packsaddle]

AZMike, that was interesting. Thanks. I guess I am part of the approximately 60% who weren't retained by the Presbyterians, lol.

Do you think the majority of leaders who ask boys about their faith, even in the manner suggested in the guide, will have that level of understanding, or if they do, be able to apply it?

[MattR]

AZMike, that was interesting. Thanks. I guess I am part of the approximately 60% who weren't retained by the Presbyterians, lol.

Do you think the majority of leaders who ask boys about their faith, even in the manner suggested in the guide, will have that level of understanding, or if they do, be able to apply it?

There seems to be two simple ideas the adults need to understand. One is fully accepting the part of Reverent that includes respecting the beliefs of others. The second is understanding how fragile it is for the typical teenager. If it's explained well I think the majority of scouters will do well with it. My only fear is that National has this fantastic way of muddying up this subject.

 

I'll tell you what, get AZMike to rewrite this topic for National and Pack can incorporate it into his satiric, online "How not to run a SMC."

[moosetracker]

Well, perhaps I opened a can of worms.. After all, the article simply shows a fight between the humanist and BSA...  Perhaps it is not BSA the denied the humanist, but the humanist who rejected BSA unless it opened it's doors to all.. Who knows..

 

After all if all these are considered religious groups and BSA has made the statement that virtually every religion is represented in the BSA. It doesn't say virtually every religion with a theistic belief..

 

Like TAHAWK says if a Buddist can have no belief in any Gods and be ok... What I do find strange was that Buddist didn't seem to be on the list of religions who are atheist in nature. I wonder why, especially when they included the Deism that has a belief that a higher power created the universe, but then left and they have no duty to them..