Eagle Project Workbook

[Gone]

 

Yes, I signed off on this project without reading it.  I trust my boys and if I read the proposal I would miss out on the excitement of seeing the whole thing play itself out.  I never want to read the last chapter of the book first.  

 

 

All good stuff. But the process and guidelines do more than suggest that the scouters be involved, not merely "sign and trust".

 

I think we have a clash of schools here. The first is the old-school B-P approach which I laud. The second is the more modern (and convoluted) approach which our boys find themselves in. The reason I elect to be more involved is to prepare them for what lies beyond Eagle. I think the old-school approach does somethings right, but I think the latter approach helps to prepare them for the more modern expectations awaiting them. I try to use much of the old-school in the process, but believe leaving them totally to their own wits is not teaching them how to fish, but expecting them to come home with dinner.

[Stosh]

All good stuff. But the process and guidelines do more than suggest that the scouters be involved, not merely "sign and trust".

 

I think we have a clash of schools here. The first is the old-school B-P approach which I laud. The second is the more modern (and convoluted) approach which our boys find themselves in. The reason I elect to be more involved is to prepare them for what lies beyond Eagle. I think the old-school approach does somethings right, but I think the latter approach helps to prepare them for the more modern expectations awaiting them. I try to use much of the old-school in the process, but believe leaving them totally to their own wits is not teaching them how to fish, but expecting them to come home with dinner.

 

As I posted, my boys get their first lesson in fishing during their Tenderfoot years.  When they get to the Eagle project, I expect them to have sufficient experience and skill to pull it off without adults hovering around making sure their seat belt is snug and all pointy objects are out of reach.  I can assure you that my boys come home with dinner long before they start their Eagle projects.  Management is an easy skill to teach and if started early in the boys scouting career, they can easily pull off Eagle projects at age 16 with no problem.  That 4+ years of experience doing them.  Summer camp last year and this year has been set up by the same scout.  That includes scheduling, registering, signing up for MB's and organizing equipment needed, etc.  He went as SPL last year and will be SPL for the camp this year.  Oh, by the way.  He just got his Tenderfoot badge.

[andysmom]

I disagree. That workbook is so convoluted and the process so disjointed I have parents that have extreme difficulty in understanding the process. We are here to advise and counsel. As with everything we do, we don't simply throw guys in the deep end...we teach them to swim and THEN throw them in the pool.

 

As far as guidance is concerned, even the workbook mentions that "Guidance that maximizes the opportunity for completion of a worthwhile project will be readily available and strongly recommended." Seems even BSA suggests adult guidance of a sort.

 

 

 

Actually, you can save signature until the draft plan is done and review both. There's nothing in the workbook the precludes any reviewer from seeing a draft copy of the final plan at the same time the proposal is done. All it says is, "Once your proposal is approved, you are strongly encouraged to complete the final plan form in this workbook." It think BSA does the candidate a disservice not REQUIRING the plan to be done along with the proposal. Let's face it. The proposal usually takes a certain level of work. The logical extension of it is the plan.

 

In the business world you don't review a proposal, sign it (which authorizes work) without a plan on how to implement the proposal. All too often scouts are getting the signatures and then running off to implement their proposal without having an effective plan in place. I have seen FAR too many projects fail because there was no effective plan. Reason? The workbook does not require one.

 

And how do you draw up an effective plan? The workbook seems designed by people who don't have the first clue about project management. Scouts need a bit of guidance on how to do that. I'm not suggesting we do a PMP-level education effort here, but teaching the boys the basics of project management and how to execute a project is a service well worth the rank of Eagle.

 

Given all the stuff BSA screws up on, I am not willing to accept the adage "that is how it is intended to be" as a good excuse for a poorly designed process and ambiguous materials.

 

I'd want my son to get the training and the guidance to do his best, THEN let him loose to see what he can do. That's what we are here for as Scouters.

When the new Eagle Workbook came out that did not require a scout completing a final plan before the project started it caused a big firestorm in our troop.  When our committee sits down with a scout to approve his project we ask him questions about how the project will be run, what his timeline is, how he intends to "provide leadership", basically all the details that would go into a final plan.  Anyone can come up with a basic proposal, we try to use our collective experiences to help the scout see his proposal from different perspectives and to prepare him for things that he might not have considered.  We ask questions, alot of questions but we don't give him answers.  We want to approve a well thought out plan.  In my mind, a proposal is not a well thought out plan.  The scout often does not have answers to our questions but when he comes out of that meeting he usually isn't wearing his rose colored "this is going to take 4 boys 36 hours and 2 wheelbarrow perfect scenario" glasses.  We just saw a boy who's project included spreading a dump truck full of mulch on a newly formed trail. He thought that part of his project would be completed with a couple borrowed wheelbarrows in a couple hours unill we made him get out a calculator to realize how many wheelbarrow loads of mulch it would take to spread a dump truck full.  He quickly realized he would need more wheelbarrows, more boys or more time.  I don't look at that as doing the project for the scout, I see that as mentoring and guiding. 

 

Our scouts do community service projects as patrols and as a troop but planning and running an Eagle Project is beyond that.  Regular service projects don't require a single scout to coordinate every aspect of the project from feeding volunteers, making sure there are proper safety protocalls in place, providing water, equipment, getting approval from municipalities etc.  An Eagle Project is a bigger deal than a troop service project and it generally IS the first time our boys are doing that sort of thing.

Edited April 15, 2015 by andysmom

[Gone]

When the new Eagle Workbook came out that did not require a scout completing a final plan before the project started it caused a big firestorm in our troop.  

 

Yup, ours too; hence the process I described. It really has helped. The number of projects getting rejected by district has gone way down and the skill set learned by our boys has gone up. One recent grad came back from college and remarked how he was able to use the skills learned in project planning and execution during his Eagle process in college. Straight As and leader of his science club's development project. Another said the skills helped him manage his computer programming project for his final grade. 

 

It may not seem like it, but just as first aid or cooking, the project management skills were "life skills" they learned as part of this process. We as adults just helped to hone what was there.

[fred johnson]

JC's Mom - Stop asking for advice.  READ the parent into in the Eagle Service Project workbook.  Your son has it.  Read it.  It's there because of all the mis-information and well-meant but misplaced extra stuff pushed by other adults.

 

If you want more explicit info, READ the BSA Guide To Advancement.  http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf   Read the section on Eagle service projects and Eagle boards of review.

 

The BSA Guide To Advancement was written because of what we see in this thread.  Mis-information.  Agendas.  I've seen both the old and new process in detail.  I'll take the new process any day of the week.  It's not perfect, but it is a huge improvement.  

 

Don't hesitate to call the district advancement chair for advice and help too.  That is why they are there. 

 

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HOURS ... Your troop may just think that he did a great project and it had to be more hours.  AND they might have thought that he truely just missed hours.  Example - We teach our scouts about how to record using the district proposal review.  Reviewer.  Scout.  And another adult for youth protection and to help take notes.  Duration is usually 60 minutes.  Scout and other adult take average of 30 minutes to commute each way.  That's five hours credited to the project.  Your son might ahve just recorded one hour or three hours.  Scouts often miss hours.

 

BUT ... it's no reason to hold off on the SM signing the final report. 

 

IMHO ... Unless it is unreadable or really poor writing, there is never a reason to not sign a final report.  Otherwise, it's the scouts words.  Sign it.

[fred johnson]

JC's Mom ... My statement of "Stop asking for advice" is more harsh than I meant.  I just meant that you won't get a good clean answer here.  ... Other than you are right.  They are not supposed to do what is happening.  It might be your son's troop personality.   But it doesn't matter.  What matters is a positive and growing experience for your son.  ... and ... IMHO, if adults a screwing things up, then that is the time for parents and others to step in to help.

[Gone]

 

The BSA Guide To Advancement was written because of what we see in this thread.  Mis-information.  Agendas.  I've seen both the old and new process in detail.  I'll take the new process any day of the week.  It's not perfect, but it is a huge improvement.  

 

 

Uh, where? 

[NJCubScouter]

I hope we haven't already lost JC's Mom with all the off-topic diversions. But the answers to her questions are in this thread, and in the workbook and Guide to Advancement.

[Stosh]

Yup, ours too; hence the process I described. It really has helped. The number of projects getting rejected by district has gone way down and the skill set learned by our boys has gone up. One recent grad came back from college and remarked how he was able to use the skills learned in project planning and execution during his Eagle process in college. Straight As and leader of his science club's development project. Another said the skills helped him manage his computer programming project for his final grade. 

 

 

Which is my point exactly.  The Eagle Project is supposed to be a LEADERSHIP demonstration, not a Project Management demonstration.   I did a computer programming project that ended up with 6,000 lines of custom coding and I did it without any help from anyone.  Managed very well, lead nothing.

 

 

 

 

JC's Mom - Stop asking for advice.  READ the parent into in the Eagle Service Project workbook.  Your son has it.  Read it.  It's there because of all the mis-information and well-meant but misplaced extra stuff pushed by other adults.

 

If you want more explicit info, READ the BSA Guide To Advancement.  http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf   Read the section on Eagle service projects and Eagle boards of review.

 

The BSA Guide To Advancement was written because of what we see in this thread.  Mis-information.  Agendas.  I've seen both the old and new process in detail.  I'll take the new process any day of the week.  It's not perfect, but it is a huge improvement.  

 

Don't hesitate to call the district advancement chair for advice and help too.  That is why they are there. 

 

--------------------------------

 

HOURS ... Your troop may just think that he did a great project and it had to be more hours.  AND they might have thought that he truely just missed hours.  Example - We teach our scouts about how to record using the district proposal review.  Reviewer.  Scout.  And another adult for youth protection and to help take notes.  Duration is usually 60 minutes.  Scout and other adult take average of 30 minutes to commute each way.  That's five hours credited to the project.  Your son might ahve just recorded one hour or three hours.  Scouts often miss hours.

 

BUT ... it's no reason to hold off on the SM signing the final report. 

 

IMHO ... Unless it is unreadable or really poor writing, there is never a reason to not sign a final report.  Otherwise, it's the scouts words.  Sign it.

 

 

It's the Scout's project, it's the scouts words, just sign it, you don't have to read it, the Eagle committee will do it on their own.

 

Looking for missing ours is a management validation process.  It has absolutely NOTHING to do with leadership.  Stick with the requirement of the project and quit making up your own rules to mess with the scout!

[perdidochas]

Question about the process of completing the Eagle Project Workbook.

 

My son finished the labor part of his Eagle Project in March.  He has been working on the workbook but seems to be at a stand-still with a few of his Troop Leaders trying to progress through that process. He has worked on the workbook himself answering each question, listing all supplies, materials, etc., hours worked, etc. etc.  I did look at it when he was finished to be sure that he had answered each question and listed all items in the workbook.

 

The response he has gotten from the leaders is that "it is not good enough" and the workbook is the "not the way Troop 74 does it".  So he was sent home last night and told to re-write most of the answers, change the way the supplies are listed, and changes need to be made to the Proposal Section.  The proposal was signed by the Scout Master, Committee Chair, District Executive, and the Beneficiary months ago. Also, he was told that he needs more work hours.  

 

I feel that it is unreasonable to ask him to make changes to the proposal now after the work is completed. I agree that there are a few answers that could be worded a little differently but they are his answers.  I was told by one leader that this reviewing and making changes at Troop meetings could go on for another 4-5 weeks before they are satisfied that it is done correctly.    

 

Is this process the norm?   I expected the workbook process to be somewhat daunting but this seems like a bit much.  

The norm is to  do the proposal before the project. Locally, the boys first have to do the preliminary proposal, get that approved by the SM, the CC and the beneficiary. Next step is to go to the District Eagle Project review committee, to get them to review it (and approve). At any of the above steps, the project can (and probably should) be revised. 

[packsaddle]

JC's mom, apologies for all the side tracks. I hope you got what you needed already.

 

So..for those who follow the Baden Powell school, what does Baden Powell say about the Eagle project?

 

Stosh, are you saying there is no leadership component to project management?

Edited April 16, 2015 by packsaddle

[Stosh]

JC's mom, apologies for all the side tracks. I hope you got what you needed already.

 

So..for those who follow the Baden Powell school, what does Baden Powell say about the Eagle project?

 

Stosh, are you saying there is no leadership component to project management?

 

Doesn't have to.  I can do a project all by myself and lead no one.

 

I can dictate work that needs to be done to another, and they do the work, they don't have to like me, but they need to do the work  They aren't following me, they are following directions.

 

 I'm saying it takes work, time, and trust to develop leadership.  That can't be done in a single project.  A boy working on his Eagle project should have developed his leadership long before he got his Eagle packet.  The project only demonstrates what leadership he possesses at that point in time.  

 

1) Are the boys following because they think the scout is popular and it would be good to be in his clique?

2) Are the boys following because the scout is really nice and they would do anything for him?

3) Are the boys doing it because they were told they had to?

4) Are the boys doing it so they get service project hours for their advancement?

5) Are the boys doing it so that others in the troop will feel obligated to help with their Eagle project?

 

#2 seems to be the only one that really demonstrates leadership  The rest are management and politics.

 

The scout that creates a really polished, professional website for a non-profit organization is not demonstrating leadership, just project management.

 

As a measuring rod for this process, are there people following and why are they following... they want to or they have to.  If you have people following because they want to, then you have leadership.

[Gone]

As a measuring rod for this process, are there people following and why are they following... they want to or they have to.  If you have people following because they want to, then you have leadership.

Hmmmm. In the military I follow because I have to. I stay because of good leaders and wanting to associate with them.

[Stosh]

Those officers who take care of their men are not only well liked, but the men prefer to follow them knowing that they all have a job to do.  The best leaders are also the best followers.

 

Officers who are not taking care of their men have men who will follow only to keep out of trouble with the system.  They follow out of fear, not trust and admiration.

[Gone]

Those officers who take care of their men are not only well liked, but the men prefer to follow them knowing that they all have a job to do.  The best leaders are also the best followers.

 

Officers who are not taking care of their men have men who will follow only to keep out of trouble with the system.  They follow out of fear, not trust and admiration.

That's what I said. But we begin following because we have to. We stay because we want to.