Eagle Project Workbook

[JC'sMom]

Question about the process of completing the Eagle Project Workbook.

 

My son finished the labor part of his Eagle Project in March.  He has been working on the workbook but seems to be at a stand-still with a few of his Troop Leaders trying to progress through that process. He has worked on the workbook himself answering each question, listing all supplies, materials, etc., hours worked, etc. etc.  I did look at it when he was finished to be sure that he had answered each question and listed all items in the workbook.

 

The response he has gotten from the leaders is that "it is not good enough" and the workbook is the "not the way Troop 74 does it".  So he was sent home last night and told to re-write most of the answers, change the way the supplies are listed, and changes need to be made to the Proposal Section.  The proposal was signed by the Scout Master, Committee Chair, District Executive, and the Beneficiary months ago. Also, he was told that he needs more work hours.  

 

I feel that it is unreasonable to ask him to make changes to the proposal now after the work is completed. I agree that there are a few answers that could be worded a little differently but they are his answers.  I was told by one leader that this reviewing and making changes at Troop meetings could go on for another 4-5 weeks before they are satisfied that it is done correctly.    

 

Is this process the norm?   I expected the workbook process to be somewhat daunting but this seems like a bit much.  

 

 

[pargolf44067]

 

The response he has gotten from the leaders is that "it is not good enough" and the workbook is the "not the way Troop 74 does it".  So he was sent home last night and told to re-write most of the answers, change the way the supplies are listed, and changes need to be made to the Proposal Section.  The proposal was signed by the Scout Master, Committee Chair, District Executive, and the Beneficiary months ago. Also, he was told that he needs more work hours.  

 

I feel that it is unreasonable to ask him to make changes to the proposal now after the work is completed. I agree that there are a few answers that could be worded a little differently but they are his answers.  I was told by one leader that this reviewing and making changes at Troop meetings could go on for another 4-5 weeks before they are satisfied that it is done correctly.    

 

Is this process the norm?   I expected the workbook process to be somewhat daunting but this seems like a bit much.  

 

And how exactly, if the work is done, is he supposed to get more work hours? 

 

I know that we were told by our District Advancement Chair that we can suggest changes to a proposal but that it was really up to the boy to include everything.  I'm not sure what kind of changes the troop leaders want him to make that will make this a 4-5 week process.   One question I have is was the actual project work so different than the proposal that it may cause issues at his BOR?  As a SM in the past, I have always looked at Eagle Workbooks and made suggestions on how to tweak things (maybe a little more than suggestions with my own sons' workbooks) to make it a little more cohesive and explanatory, but my troop didn't have "standards" that they had to meet other than it had to be done in ink or typewritten.  I knew what the BOR was looking for so I would give advice.  The only thing that I can think of is that they know your son's book would be harmful to him in his EBOR, but I always made suggestions and told them that it was up to them to be able to explain their books and projects to their EBOR members.

[Gone]

Question about the process of completing the Eagle Project Workbook.

 

My son finished the labor part of his Eagle Project in March.  He has been working on the workbook but seems to be at a stand-still with a few of his Troop Leaders trying to progress through that process. He has worked on the workbook himself answering each question, listing all supplies, materials, etc., hours worked, etc. etc.  I did look at it when he was finished to be sure that he had answered each question and listed all items in the workbook.

 

The response he has gotten from the leaders is that "it is not good enough" and the workbook is the "not the way Troop 74 does it".  So he was sent home last night and told to re-write most of the answers, change the way the supplies are listed, and changes need to be made to the Proposal Section.  The proposal was signed by the Scout Master, Committee Chair, District Executive, and the Beneficiary months ago. Also, he was told that he needs more work hours.  

 

I feel that it is unreasonable to ask him to make changes to the proposal now after the work is completed. I agree that there are a few answers that could be worded a little differently but they are his answers.  I was told by one leader that this reviewing and making changes at Troop meetings could go on for another 4-5 weeks before they are satisfied that it is done correctly.    

 

Is this process the norm?   I expected the workbook process to be somewhat daunting but this seems like a bit much.  

 

Wow, stunned that the troop would clear him in the first place to even begin his project without having done a few things first.

 

In our unit we follow this process:

• The Scout meets with an Eagle Advisor to discuss his proposal. He works and meets with the advisor to make sure his proposal and plan meet BSA and beneficiary requirements.
• The proposal is drafted and submitted to the advisor. When adequate it goes to the SM for signature.
• Our SM requires the Scout to have his draft plan done BEFORE signing. The reason is that the BSA process is a bit backwards in that they only require proposal sign off but no sign off until all the way at the end of the project paperwork. Seeing the draft plan AND the proposal helps the SM work with the Scout to make sure that all of the things required in the workbook are properly documented.
• After the reviews the proposal and draft plan it is sent back to the Scout for updating and such. After the updates they are sent back to the SM for review and signature. The CC signs the docs with little review relying on the SM and the Eagle Advisor to do their work. Then the Beneficiary signs (or sometimes that is first). Then the district exec.
• NOW the project can begin.
• AFTER the project is worked then the final plan is developed, noting the changes from the proposal and draft plan.
• When the final plan is done our Eagle Advisor walks through ALL the Eagle paperwork to ensure that everything meets the requirements AND the stated scope/benefit of the plan. The BIG issue is not the project but rather did the Scout meet the spirit of Requirement #5 "While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your unit leader and unit committee, and the council or district before you start."
• Unless the Scout really, really did not show leadership during his project or did not show evidence of a good plan then our SM signs off on the final project plan.

Some units or beneficiaries like to add stuff after the fact. So unless your son did a very poor job in answering the questions in the workbook OR did not show leadership during the project, then your unit is being a bit too picky. They may even be violating BSA guidelines around the Eagle process. If the unit continues to be sticky on this subject I would get a meeting with the district person and talk to them.

 

This can all be avoided by the unit helping the Scout to manage this very poorly designed process better.

[pargolf44067]

mozartbrau,

 

I assumed that they approved of the project proposal beforehand based on the fact that they signed off on the proposal months ago.  Why would they have him change stuff in the proposal section if they approved that piece before?

 

I agree with you that they could be violating BSA guidelines.  It would really take a lot of negatives for me as SM not to sign off on someone's Eagle workbook.  There was another thread in here from a couple of months ago about what you could have the scout fix before signing off on the proposal which had some interesting comments in there.

[LeCastor]

If the project proposal has been written and the Scoutmaster, Committee Chair, and District Eagle Coordinator have signed the project proposal then it's a done deal. It's now time for the Eagle candidate to prepare himself for questions regarding what went according to plan and what didn't.  JC's Mom, is this really the proposal they are requiring him to redo or some post-project paperwork?  In this situation I would check with the district advancement chair because 4-5 weeks of rewriting is ludicrous, in my opinion.  

 

There's having standards and then there's Sisyphus trying to push this project proposal up the mountain....

[Gone]

mozartbrau,

 

I assumed that they approved of the project proposal beforehand based on the fact that they signed off on the proposal months ago.  Why would they have him change stuff in the proposal section if they approved that piece before?

 

I agree with you that they could be violating BSA guidelines.  It would really take a lot of negatives for me as SM not to sign off on someone's Eagle workbook.  There was another thread in here from a couple of months ago about what you could have the scout fix before signing off on the proposal which had some interesting comments in there.

 

I agree on the sign off of the project proposal. They all signed so the PROPOSAL met with their expectations.

 

Where I have seen the issues come up where units want "more work done" come when the project plan is insufficiently developed/completed so that it is hard to decided of the Scout met Requirement #5. That's why my unit insists on seeing the Draft Plan AND the Proposal. That way we can help the candidate properly track and document his project. I've suggested to BSA for years that their process is broken and they should require the Scouts to get the unit signatures AFTER the proposal AND draft plan are done. To sign the proposal is just silly.

 

We as leaders need to guide these kids in during this imperfect process. We need to protect them against "scope creep" by the beneficiaries. We need to protect them from overzealous Scouters in the unit and district.

 

For the life of me I cannot see an SM refusing to sign a workbook unless it was 1) shoddy, 2) very insufficient, 3) did not meet the stated goals of the proposal, 4) the beneficiary was not happy because it was done poorly or not done to proposal.

 

This could all be avoided had the unit had better processes to help the Scout.

[JC'sMom]

Thanks all for your comments.  I will try to answer the questions asked.

 

In regard to more hours, he was told to go back through all his notes and see if he could find more hours. The total service hours for the project is 153.

 

The project was for a flagpole installed with landscaping (stone pavers, flower beds, landscape timbers, mulch) at a middle school. The only change from the proposal was the beneficiary (school principal) changed the location from one side of the walk to the other.  Which of course, he listed this change on the Final Plan.  So, no, the project was really no different than what was submitted and signed off on. 

 

His Troop does not use an Eagle Advisor or a Project Coach.  

 

And the SM said it may be 4-5 weeks of having him change wording to get it the way they want it.  My argument with the SM last night was that this is the Scouts book and should not have to be changed to the SM's wording.  

[pargolf44067]

There is no official minimum for hours, but in any case 153 hours is well in excess of a lot of Eagle Projects that I have seen, so not sure why he is supposed to go and find more hours.  Second, if everyone signed off on the proposal, there is no reason for him to change this at this point in time.  Finally, I agree with your argument this is your son's book not the SM's and as long as he can explain and answer questions about his project, he shouldn't have 4-5 weeks of wording change.  I would speak to your District Advancement Chair if this doesn't resolve itself quickly.

[Gone]

There is no official minimum for hours, but in any case 153 hours is well in excess of a lot of Eagle Projects that I have seen, so not sure why he is supposed to go and find more hours.  Second, if everyone signed off on the proposal, there is no reason for him to change this at this point in time.  Finally, I agree with your argument this is your son's book not the SM's and as long as he can explain and answer questions about his project, he shouldn't have 4-5 weeks of wording change.  I would speak to your District Advancement Chair if this doesn't resolve itself quickly.

 

Agreed. The SM is in Al Haig "I'm In Control" Land. The work is done. The signatures to the proposal agreed with the approach. Any changes during the project at what the Final Project Plan is for. Unless he's not using complete sentences or effectively conveying his ideas and concepts, the SM is being a bugger about this.

[Stosh]

What would happen if a scout were to turn in the completed project without the SM's signature?  Would the Eagle committee deal with the SM or the boy?  In either case, some "splainin' gonna need to be done.  The more transparent this becomes the thinner the ice for the troop and it's overbearing leadership.  It's the boy's project.  Have him send it in on it's own merits and if the Eagle committee doesn't think the requirements have been met, THEY can say something.

 

I sign without reading any of the boy's work on HIS project.  If it isn't good enough, not my problem.  I do not assign any coaches or advisers for the boy.  He can read and he should be able to understand what's written and what's necessary to complete.  The only thing I participate in is the SM's recommendation.  I have held off on giving one to a scout that was too much a Paper Eagle with a serious maturity issue.  There is no requirement that a SM has to give a positive recommendation.  The council did and that's not my issue.  It's between the boy and the council.  The boy negotiated 6 months to prove his leadership and maturity.  I agreed and he was a totally different boy from that point onward.  He got his recommendation and his Eagle.

 

Because troops are not part of the Eagle project requirement, I just leave it up to the council to work it out with the boy  Except for that one little glitch, all my boys have gotten their Eagle rank completed without adult intervention of any kind.

[NJCubScouter]

• Our SM requires the Scout to have his draft plan done BEFORE signing. The reason is that the BSA process is a bit backwards in that they only require proposal sign off but no sign off until all the way at the end of the project paperwork. Seeing the draft plan AND the proposal helps the SM work with the Scout to make sure that all of the things required in the workbook are properly documented.

 

I am pretty certain you're not allowed to do that.  That was the whole point of revamping the workbook a few years ago.  When the proposal and plan were all in the same section that had to be signed off by everybody (SM, committee, beneficiary and council/district), apparently too many Eagle candidates were doing all the work needed to prepare an elaborate plan, only to be told that their idea was no good and they have to start over.  So they divided the pre-project part of the book into Proposal and Final Plan, with pre-approvals required ONLY for the Proposal (which does include some preliminary planning but not all the stuff that now appears after the signatures.)  Now, if the idea is no good they have only wasted X amount of time, instead of X times whatever.  It might seem "a bit backwards" to you, but that is exactly how it is intended to be.  And I am pretty sure it says all this, though in more lawyerly language, either in the workbook itself or in the Guide to Advancement, or both.

[NJCubScouter]

JC'sMom, your son's options are actually summarized in the workbook itself.  Page 6 (right before the Proposal section starts) says (with some bolding added by me):

 

 

 

There may be instances where upon its completion, the unit leader or project beneficiary chooses not to approve a project. One or the other may determine modifications were so significant that the impact of the project was insufficient. The candidate may be requested to do more work or even start over with another project. He may choose to meet these requests, or he may decide — if he believes his completed project worthy and in compliance—to complete his Eagle Scout Rank Application and submit his project workbook without final approval. He must be granted a board of review should he request it. If it is thought a unit board may not provide a fair hearing, a board of review under disputed circumstances may be initiated according to the Guide to Advancement.

 

There is more detail about this (a lot more, unfortunately) in the Guide to Advancement itself.  If your son decides not to comply with the request to rewrite his workbook (and even to do more work), he (note I say "he", it's his project) should get a copy of the Guide to Advancement (its at scouting.org, somewhere) and find the applicable sections and see exactly what the procedure is.  The point is that it is possible to go over the Scoutmaster's head and get approval from the council/district level.  You (I mean, he) just have to jump through the right hoops in the right order, but they're all in "the book."  (In this case, the Guide to Advancement.)

Edited April 14, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[NJCubScouter]

What would happen if a scout were to turn in the completed project without the SM's signature?

See the post right above this one. There's a procedure for that.

 

I sign without reading any of the boy's work on HIS project.

I don't want to send the original poster's thread off-topic, but I need to say something here. I know we've been through this before, but you shouldn't sign something without reading it. That applies to both contracts and Eagle Project Workbooks. Right above where you (as SM) are signing, it says "I have reviewed the proposal," or words to that effect. If you haven't read it, you shouldn't be signing that you've reviewed it.

 

Because troops are not part of the Eagle project requirement...

Right. That's why two of the four signatures on the proposal are by leaders of the troop (the SM and someone on behalf of the committee.) (Past experience tells me I need to point out that that was sarcasm.) The troop is supposed to be part of the process, but apparently you have chosen not to be. I don't think we should distract from the original poster's question with how Stosh chooses to do it, or how Mozartbrau's troop chooses to do it, or how NJCubScouter's troop chooses to do it. This thread is about how this particular Scout's troop does it, and what options this Scout has in dealing with it.

Edited April 14, 2015 by NJCubScouter

[Gone]

I sign without reading any of the boy's work on HIS project.  If it isn't good enough, not my problem.  I do not assign any coaches or advisers for the boy.  He can read and he should be able to understand what's written and what's necessary to complete.  

 

I disagree. That workbook is so convoluted and the process so disjointed I have parents that have extreme difficulty in understanding the process. We are here to advise and counsel. As with everything we do, we don't simply throw guys in the deep end...we teach them to swim and THEN throw them in the pool.

 

As far as guidance is concerned, even the workbook mentions that "Guidance that maximizes the opportunity for completion of a worthwhile project will be readily available and strongly recommended." Seems even BSA suggests adult guidance of a sort.

 

 

I am pretty certain you're not allowed to do that.  That was the whole point of revamping the workbook a few years ago.  When the proposal and plan were all in the same section that had to be signed off by everybody (SM, committee, beneficiary and council/district), apparently too many Eagle candidates were doing all the work needed to prepare an elaborate plan, only to be told that their idea was no good and they have to start over.  So they divided the pre-project part of the book into Proposal and Final Plan, with pre-approvals required ONLY for the Proposal (which does include some preliminary planning but not all the stuff that now appears after the signatures.)  Now, if the idea is no good they have only wasted X amount of time, instead of X times whatever.  It might seem "a bit backwards" to you, but that is exactly how it is intended to be.  And I am pretty sure it says all this, though in more lawyerly language, either in the workbook itself or in the Guide to Advancement, or both.

 

Actually, you can save signature until the draft plan is done and review both. There's nothing in the workbook the precludes any reviewer from seeing a draft copy of the final plan at the same time the proposal is done. All it says is, "Once your proposal is approved, you are strongly encouraged to complete the final plan form in this workbook." It think BSA does the candidate a disservice not REQUIRING the plan to be done along with the proposal. Let's face it. The proposal usually takes a certain level of work. The logical extension of it is the plan.

 

In the business world you don't review a proposal, sign it (which authorizes work) without a plan on how to implement the proposal. All too often scouts are getting the signatures and then running off to implement their proposal without having an effective plan in place. I have seen FAR too many projects fail because there was no effective plan. Reason? The workbook does not require one.

 

And how do you draw up an effective plan? The workbook seems designed by people who don't have the first clue about project management. Scouts need a bit of guidance on how to do that. I'm not suggesting we do a PMP-level education effort here, but teaching the boys the basics of project management and how to execute a project is a service well worth the rank of Eagle.

 

Given all the stuff BSA screws up on, I am not willing to accept the adage "that is how it is intended to be" as a good excuse for a poorly designed process and ambiguous materials.

 

I'd want my son to get the training and the guidance to do his best, THEN let him loose to see what he can do. That's what we are here for as Scouters.

[Stosh]

With a boy-led program, every boy that gets to the Life to Eagle part of their scouting career have done multiple service projects with the troop as the sole leader/coordinator. They know how to put them together, they know how to plan, they know what it takes and their Eagle projects are just another walk through.  My signing by not reading HIS PROPOSAL doesn't mean anything except for paperwork filing.  I know what the boy's project is.  The majority of times it is something I have suggested.  It's up to him to flesh it out and make it work.  He doesn't need my "approval" to do that, just my signature.

 

No one's throwing anyone to the wolves here.  These boys are experienced in these things.  If I wait until the last minute to teach these boys how to put together their Eagle Project, I might as well do it for them.  This should not be something new for them.  Unfortunately a lot of adult-run, adult-mentored, adult-guided, adult-directed troop never allows the boys to take the lead on projects so that yes, this might be the very first time they have ever had to put together a service project.  

 

In my troop that is NEVER the case.  I have boys that from day one can take the lead on a service project and start getting ready for the Eagle Project.  They can screw up.  They can fail.  And yes, they can learn, too.  Each time they try, they get better and no adult is there to lecture them or correct their grammar or sentence structure.  No project is too big or too small.  We don't count hours or evaluate it's significance in the scope of the world view on service projects.  The very first service project for a Tenderfoot scout might be nothing more than pairing up buddies and determining which side of the road they will be assigned to pick up garbage, but it will be THEIR project to learn on.

 

I have seen Eagle candidates pull off a project that could easily be broken down into 2-3 different sub-projects that the council would readily accept as valid on their own, and the boy had it so well organized it was completed in one Saturday.  It cost no money so there weren't any fund needed to be raise, and every boy that showed up was given a specific task to do.   The project needed trees to be felled, he had fully equipped adults that were capable to doing just that and were assigned to drop specific trees.

 

This boy even had a fully staffed luncheon tent sent up to serve lunch to all the workers.

 

Yes, I signed off on this project without reading it.  I trust my boys and if I read the proposal I would miss out on the excitement of seeing the whole thing play itself out.  I never want to read the last chapter of the book first.  

 

So jump my case all you want.  I have a scrapbook of newspaper articles that work very well for me in the long run.  And my style might be a bit unorthodox, but with the number of mentor pins I have it really doesn't matter at all to me.