Do We Really Need Eagle Required Merit Badges?

[Stosh]

Playing Devil's Advocate in red...

 

And any and all of this could be done by the PL as well??? Kinda like keeping with the boy-led, patrol-method theme?  Only SM"s are qualified to give out the council's MB list to the boys?  I'm all for the SM pulling the plug on a poorly run MB, but I'm equally all for a PL doing the same thing.  Devil's Advocate here:    Which is better a Scout that takes a MB and then brags about how easy it was and that the counselor pencil whipped everything and he didn't really have to do anything but slightly pay attention?  Or the Scout that complains to the Camp Director, his SM and everyone else he can find to listen that he didn't get what he paid for in his MB class?

 

And also along the lines of boy-led, patrol-method, couldn't the PL be doing the prep work with the boy to make sure his patrol member gets the most out of his scouting experience?  By the way, this is exactly what happens in my troop.  All the MB's for summer camp were worked out with the PL and his patrol members.

 

Devil's Advocate:  Maybe only SM are qualified to be the real leaders and that the boys only given lip-service leadership?  Maybe when the SM tells a boy to go talk to his PL, it's only a token crumb gesture to the PL position.  After all everyone knows who the real leaders are and always go to them first.  These kids know this and my kids don't come to me first, they always go to their PL first.  My PL and I are in constant communication so I know what's going on and what I see is some fantastic stuff.   

 

I would be extremely happy to have the Blue Cards truly reflective of the methods of scouting.  "Before starting this MB, discuss with your PL and have him sign."  And then they wonder why adult-led seems to be so prevalent in the Boy Scout program.

 

I give my boys the opportunity for learning real leadership.  It's kinda surprising how well they do when the adults really do get out of the way. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by Stosh

[Eagledad]

Having a bad day are ya stosh? 

 

Barry

[Stosh]

I have found that too many times a scout and leader have different opinions about how they would rate counselors.....scout's opinion, 5 stars easy, let me get away with completing a badge without doing the hardest requirement,, I ma sure most SM would not rate that particular counselor as 5 stars. 

I do know that many councils have MBC lists online, ours does not and we get a strict note with the list that we get each month that the list is NOT to be made public.  Even in the guide to advancement it states that scouts should not have access.

 

7.0.2.2 Web-Based Counselor Lists

Online counselor lists present a number of challenges.

They should only be placed on offi cial council websites

that conform to the National Council guidelines at

http://www.scouting.org/Marketing/Resources/

CouncilWeb.aspx. Give attention to protecting counselor

privacy. Limit access to those who have merit badge–

related responsibilities, such as advancement committee

members and chairs, or unit leaders and selected

assistants. Scouts should not have access. Their

interaction with the Scoutmaster in discussing work

on a badge, and obtaining a counselor’s name,

is an important part of the merit badge plan.

 

 

I don't think talking to a scout while he is signing a completed blue card would be considered "adding to the requirements"  I never said that a SM should deny a signature.  I was pointing out WHY a SM should be meeting with a scout before starting and after completing a MB.  It is a way of starting a conversation.

 

In our troop the PLs do not "know" the MBC, especially the ones that he has not worked with and even more especially the ones outside of our troop.  We fully expect the PL to work with the boys to teach and practice how to call a MBC to set us a meeting.

 

What if your PL "knows a MBC" who has let his YP lapse.  How is PL supposed to know that.  Poor kid under him completes the MB and finished it, then when it gets checked finds out that MBC has fallen off the MBC list, how is that teaching him anything.  Taking responsibility for oneself means doing things the way they are supposed to be done, which is how it is spelled out in the GTA.  Scouts talks with SM about merit badge, gets a signed blue card and a few names of counselors, completes the work, turns to blue card back into his troop to be signed by the SM

 

The SM is there to support the PL, provide a list of qualified MBC's, etc. share records of what the patrol members have and need for MB's, make suggestions on what might be appropriate for the members, BUT the final decision as to what's best for their members is in the hands of the PL.

 

My PL sat down with his patrol, found out what each boy wanted to take, then went back and created a schedule so that guys could buddy up and if not have MB sessions close to each other so they could get back to the campsite with a buddy, etc.  He did bring to me the fact that the new Webelos boy wanted to take 4 Eagle Path MB's the first year and asked me to talk with him about it.  I did and he went back and worked out having at least one really fun MB to go with the 4 Eagle path ones.  Neither of us said no because we both believe that what the members pick even after being warned is a respected decision.  If something goes wrong, the PL or the PL and SM will work it though with the Scout.  Everything is a learning opportunity.

[Stosh]

 Yes, I am, it's raining and I can't play in the garden.....  Other than that things are great.  Thanks for asking.

[Eagledad]

The SM is there to support the PL, provide a list of qualified MBC's, etc. share records of what the patrol members have and need for MB's, make suggestions on what might be appropriate for the members, BUT the final decision as to what's best for their members is in the hands of the PL.

 

 

Yes, but the discussion is whether the SM should have to provide a signature in the process.

 

And as a side, the PL isn't given any of this responsibility in the BSA guidelines. Even you said: "MB's are designed as individual advancement opportunities, not as patrol or troop activities.". 

 

Barry

Edited April 21, 2015 by Eagledad

[andysmom]

The SM is there to support the PL, provide a list of qualified MBC's, etc. share records of what the patrol members have and need for MB's, make suggestions on what might be appropriate for the members, BUT the final decision as to what's best for their members is in the hands of the PL.

 

My PL sat down with his patrol, found out what each boy wanted to take, then went back and created a schedule so that guys could buddy up and if not have MB sessions close to each other so they could get back to the campsite with a buddy, etc.  He did bring to me the fact that the new Webelos boy wanted to take 4 Eagle Path MB's the first year and asked me to talk with him about it.  I did and he went back and worked out having at least one really fun MB to go with the 4 Eagle path ones.  Neither of us said no because we both believe that what the members pick even after being warned is a respected decision.  If something goes wrong, the PL or the PL and SM will work it though with the Scout.  Everything is a learning opportunity.

For summer camp our boys pick up the list of merit badges that are offered and each scout circles what they want to take, the boys know the layout of the camp so they know about how long it takes to get places, they don't need help with that.  It is highly recommended that first years take the "Pioneering Program" but we don't hang them by their toenails if they choose not to.  SM talks to the scouts when they hand in their choices.  If a tenderfoot wants to do a trek, he is told that he doesn't meet the camp's requirements.  We did have a 2nd class this year want to do the trek (1st class is required) so an older scout is spending time with him to try to get him to meet that goal.

[Stosh]

Yes, but the discussion is whether the SM should have to provide a signature in the process.

 

And as a side, the PL isn't given any of this responsibility in the BSA guidelines. Even you said: "MB's are designed as individual advancement opportunities, not as patrol or troop activities.". 

 

Barry

 

That is correct.  It just depends on one's agenda as to what it means when the PL is responsible for the welfare of his patrol members.  Does that mean that because one's medications are not a patrol or troop activity the PL doesn't have to worry about his new boy getting down to the camp nurse for his meds?

 

No, when I tell my PL's they are responsible for the welfare of their patrol members I mean it for real.  If I were running a troop of 80 boys I couldn't keep track of everything and I really don't need 10 ASM's when I already have 10 PL's.

 

Does that mean I abdicate my responsibility as an adult leader, no I keep an eye on things, but I don't interfere unless it's an issue of safety.  And I definitely don't do it for them.

 

Because we don't have an SPL, the PL comes directly to me with any concerns he has about his members.

 

I pencil whip my signature on the Blue Cards because my PL has already done all the prep work.  He could sign just as easily as I do, but to make it "Official" it gets my John Hancock.

 

This Boy-led, patrol-method, with little to no adult involvement works just like it's supposed to.  One ought to try it out for themselves.

[pargolf44067]

My issue on the signing of MB Blue Cards is that we have parents (both currently and in the past) that have somehow gotten a hold of blue cards and had their boys start merit badges without ever discussing with the SM.  When the parents do that it circumvents troop leadership (both boys and adults) and it makes scouts less fun for their sons.  How much fun can it be with your parents making you do so many merit badges every month.

 

When I was SM, I would sign all of the blue cards and have conversations with scouts on those that I had potential concerns with (such as a first year scout taking Personal Management) because I felt that they wouldn't really get what was intended out of the merit badge.  (Seriously, how much is a 5th or 6th grader going to get out of budgeting and time management and some of the other items in that MB)  However, I wouldn't not sign the blue card, although after discussion the boys (and/or their parents) might decide to take a different one.

[Eagledad]

My issue on the signing of MB Blue Cards is that we have parents (both currently and in the past) that have somehow gotten a hold of blue cards and had their boys start merit badges without ever discussing with the SM.  When the parents do that it circumvents troop leadership (both boys and adults) and it makes scouts less fun for their sons.  How much fun can it be with your parents making you do so many merit badges every month.

 

When I was SM, I would sign all of the blue cards and have conversations with scouts on those that I had potential concerns with (such as a first year scout taking Personal Management) because I felt that they wouldn't really get what was intended out of the merit badge.  (Seriously, how much is a 5th or 6th grader going to get out of budgeting and time management and some of the other items in that MB)  However, I wouldn't not sign the blue card, although after discussion the boys (and/or their parents) might decide to take a different one.

Yes, I think you are supporting others in that there does seem to be a need to protect the integrity of the MB process from those with a  self-serving ambition. Every summer camp the desires of what parents want for their son comes out in full force. I remember one mother chewing me out during a committee meeting telling me how bad a leader I was for allowing her son to came home the previous year with Zero badge. Her 11 year old son skipped all his classes and had the best time of his life at that camp.

 

The only way I could see this working in a program without the blue cards is creating "more training" to teach the scouts and adults of how the process should work. It also means the counselor would need to take on a lot more responsibility in evaluating whether the scout should be taking the course and deal with the pushy parents. I'm not sure they would be willing to take on those additional responsibilities. Actually I know they wouldn't.

 

Barry

[CalicoPenn]

 

 

  "Before starting this MB, discuss with your PL and have him sign."  

 

THIS!!!!  I can't think of any better way to improve the Blue Card than this - have the PL (though I would also include the SPL) be the person that signs when the Blue Card is issued.  The SM can sign when it's completed and have their chat (how was the experience, etc.)

[blw2]

..... (Seriously, how much is a 5th or 6th grader going to get out of budgeting and time management and some of the other items in that MB)  ......

My son in 3rd grade last year had significantly more homework than I did in High School..... 

I don't disagree with your point (re. maturity level), BUT I would say that kids even 3rd-4th grade could benefit from good time management training.... especially in this day and age with so many controlled activities..... school, sports, band, scouts.... although it's not used for anything more than a homework agenda, they issue what amounts to a daytimer calendar to elementary school kids at our school!

[andysmom]

My son in 3rd grade last year had significantly more homework than I did in High School..... 

I don't disagree with your point (re. maturity level), BUT I would say that kids even 3rd-4th grade could benefit from good time management training.... especially in this day and age with so many controlled activities..... school, sports, band, scouts.... although it's not used for anything more than a homework agenda, they issue what amounts to a daytimer calendar to elementary school kids at our school!

They issue one to our kids too...... it would be nice if they took the time to teach the kids how to really use it

Edited April 23, 2015 by andysmom

[pargolf44067]

My son in 3rd grade last year had significantly more homework than I did in High School..... 

I don't disagree with your point (re. maturity level), BUT I would say that kids even 3rd-4th grade could benefit from good time management training.... especially in this day and age with so many controlled activities..... school, sports, band, scouts.... although it's not used for anything more than a homework agenda, they issue what amounts to a daytimer calendar to elementary school kids at our school!

 

That is a very good point.  My kids had agendas, too, with no training on how to use them.  Maybe the time management piece is valid but all the budgeting and financial information to me seems a little more geared towards older kids.

[Gone]

I played at recess in third grade.

 

Do we really need to teaching time management and giving out Covey planners to third graders?

 

There's plenty of time to learn that stuff. Heck, I learned time management by making it home for dinner or going to bed hungry. I didn't need to have my iPhone synced to our family calendar to know when to be home.

[andysmom]

I played at recess in third grade.

 

Do we really need to teaching time management and giving out Covey planners to third graders?

 

There's plenty of time to learn that stuff. Heck, I learned time management by making it home for dinner or going to bed hungry. I didn't need to have my iPhone synced to our family calendar to know when to be home.

Sadly, giving out "agendas" in elementary school is happening whether we think it is necessary or not. They are taking away recess in many elementary schools, parents in our district have fought tooth and nail to keep it.

By middle school sports teams practice 7 days a week, yep, 7 days.  Miss practice don't play, robotics teams members are not seen at troop meetings during "build and competition" times.  My son is in 8th grade and I can't help him with math anymore, had to pass that off to the "engineer husband"  We loose kids at troop meetings because they have to much homework...... one of my many personal issues