Do We Really Need Eagle Required Merit Badges?

[Eagledad]

Besides the personal attack, I don't understand the point being made. 

Personal attack? 

 

Scoutmasters refuse to sign because they either didn't agree the scout did the work or they didn't approve of the counselors interpretation of the requirements. Our council only requires the signature at the begining of the process. After that, it is out of our hands, so we have it better than the blue card.

 

I like the first signature because it gives us the opportunity to guide the scout in filling out the card and helping contact the counselor. Most people don't realize that the vast majority of 11 year old boys have never contacted a stranger for the purpose of making arrangements for working together. It is very intimidating. However, I could figure out a way of continuing such guidance without the signature.

 

Barry

[Gone]

Scoutmasters refuse to sign because they either didn't agree the scout did the work or they didn't approve of the counselors interpretation of the requirements. Our council only requires the signature at the begining of the process. After that, it is out of our hands, so we have it better than the blue card.

 

We had an issue at camp a few years ago. We had a scouter attend a Gelology MB class because he heard that the MBC was discussing Minecraft the whole class....not the MB requirements. This was reported to the camp director who also audited the course. Discussions were had with the MBC but this continued. The scouter audited every session to see if any of the requirements were covered. His report showed less than 20% of the requirements were covered. This was a subject of daily discussion with the camp director, who eventually just gave up. Come Friday night and reviewing the MB packet, all of our scouts were "signed off" on that MB. Our SM was reluctant to sign the blue cards but had no choice. When we got home spoke with the scouts and and their parents. We discussed the problem (that the boys have been awarded something they didn't earn) and offered a resolution. One of our dads (a geologist) offered to hold a Saturday session to review the skipped requirements. We noted this was voluntary and that the boys would receive the MB anyway because BSA requires it.

 

To their credit all but one of the scouts took the extra session. They all felt they had really earned the badge. Only one scout didn't take the extra course....but he dropped later anyway. All the scouts who stepped up and took the course eventually made Eagle or SPL or JASM or such.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Mozartbrau

[CalicoPenn]

I can't seem to find anything in any BSA literature or BSA official websites that list the reasons a Scoutmaster can have for not signing a blue card.  Not one mention anywhere that says the SM can prevent a Scout from working on any merit badge they want, or any amount of merit badges at one time that they want.  I see nothing that says a SM can decide a Scout is too young, or has too many open blue cards, or who the Scout's MBC is going to be.  I can find nothing in the literature that states a SM can refuse to sign a blue card.

 

If a Scout comes to me with a blue card and has already started with a counselor, I'm going to ask how he found that person, and how that person is working for him.  I may need to suggest that person to another Scout.  I'm not going to petulantly decide I'm not going to sign the blue card because the Scout didn't come to me first.  Seriously, if you're an SM and your ego is going to be that wounded because a Scout didn't think to bring you into the process at the start that you refuse to sign the blue card, then maybe you're just not cut out to be a Scoutmaster.  We all know that the BSA is notorious for being inconsistent in their statements from one document to the next - heck, the BSA website on Merit Badges that was kindly linked to here contradicts itself on this very issue.  The BSA is a game - the Scouts are the players - we are not the goalkeepers, the gatekeepers, the umpires or the referees.  We're the coaches or the folks at the fork in the road encouraging the Scouts to take the correct fork, to give them the tools they need to play the game.  It's really not our job to stop or pause the game unless there are serious issues of health and safety to be addressed.

[Gone]

It's really not our job to stop or pause the game unless there are serious issues of health and safety to be addressed.

 

...or if the rules get violated.

[andysmom]

If a Scout comes to me with a blue card and has already started with a counselor, I'm going to ask how he found that person, and how that person is working for him.  I may need to suggest that person to another Scout.  I'm not going to petulantly decide I'm not going to sign the blue card because the Scout didn't come to me first.  Seriously, if you're an SM and your ego is going to be that wounded because a Scout didn't think to bring you into the process at the start that you refuse to sign the blue card, then maybe you're just not cut out to be a Scoutmaster.  We all know that the BSA is notorious for being inconsistent in their statements from one document to the next - heck, the BSA website on Merit Badges that was kindly linked to here contradicts itself on this very issue.  The BSA is a game - the Scouts are the players - we are not the goalkeepers, the gatekeepers, the umpires or the referees.  We're the coaches or the folks at the fork in the road encouraging the Scouts to take the correct fork, to give them the tools they need to play the game.  It's really not our job to stop or pause the game unless there are serious issues of health and safety to be addressed.

Absolutely agree.

 

Having the SM sign the card after the MB is completed gives the SM a chance to discuss with the scout what he learned during the process and if the counselor "skimmed" through requirements, etc.  That will help the SM narrow down the list of names he gives to the next scout looking to work on the badge.  You have to award the scout the badge, but you don't need to give the name of this counselor to another scout.  By the SM signing  and giving a scout a list of counselors that the SM knows follow the requirements it keeps the integrity of the merit badge program.

[Stosh]

 

If a SM doesn't know what MB's his boys are taking, he's not doing his job!  He doesn't need to sign anything to know what is going on.  My PL gives me a list of MB's the boys signed up for for summer camp.  If I have concerns about any of them, I can talk with the boy.  I don't need to "give him permission" with my signature.  

 

My one Webelos cross-over this year signed up for 4 Eagle Path MB's for camp this summer.  I visited with him that that would be a real challenge.  He agreed, to take an additional fun MB to go along with the other four.    Okay, we'll see how he does.  

 

Long before this boy finishes his 4 Eagle MB's we'll be talking about it while at camp.  If he doesn't complete them, then the discussion will change to finding him a counselor back home that can help him finish up.  Still no signature on my part needed.

 

Worse case scenario?  The boy signs up for a MB, does it, competes it and turns in his paperwork.  It's a done deal.  As SM, I ask him, "Good job on the MB, tell me about it."  

 

Never in the process is adult gate-keeping needed.  

[Eagledad]

Having the SM sign the card after the MB is completed gives the SM a chance to discuss with the scout what he learned during the process and if the counselor "skimmed" through requirements, etc.  That will help the SM narrow down the list of names he gives to the next scout looking to work on the badge.  You have to award the scout the badge, but you don't need to give the name of this counselor to another scout.  By the SM signing  and giving a scout a list of counselors that the SM knows follow the requirements it keeps the integrity of the merit badge program.

 

You lost me, what is the reason a signature is required to get the scout a list or discuss the scouts experience? The list can be on the internet and the SM does have the tool of a SM conference.  

 

I'm just playing devils advocate to force us outside the box. Honestly I'm in a weird place here because I was making the same arguments in the original discussion. 

 

Barry

Edited April 21, 2015 by Eagledad

[Eagle94-A1]

 

You lost me, what is the reason a signature is required to get the scout a list or discuss the scouts experience? The list can be on the internet and the SM does have the tool of a SM conference.  

 

I'm just playing devils advocate to force us outside the box. Honestly I'm in a weird place here because I was making the same arguments in the original discussion. 

 

Barry

 

 

After what heppened with my son and one MB he took at a local MBC, I understand why some SMs want to be "gate keepers" and make sure the Scouts are getting quality MB counselors. Son took a MB at a MBC  that the MB Counselor not only used out of date requirements, try about 10 years out of date, but the Scouts didn't do all of the old requirements even. As a Scouter, I could do nothing about it, he "earned" the MB because it was signed off as completed.

 

But as his dad, I talked to him, and made him realize why it's important to do all of the requirements. Maybe I was wrong in letting work on the old requirements, but officially he had already earned it. Besides he had fun doing the rest of the requirements anyway.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Eagle94-A1

[andysmom]

 

You lost me, what is the reason a signature is required to get the scout a list or discuss the scouts experience? The list can be on the internet and the SM does have the tool of a SM conference.  

 

I'm just playing devils advocate to force us outside the box. Honestly I'm in a weird place here because I was making the same arguments in the original discussion. 

 

Barry

 

The signature it is the SM's acknowledgement that he gave the scout names of approved counselors from a list that has been provided by district who have completed youth protection.

When the merit badge is completed the SM discusses what the scout learned and how the process went.  If the scoutmaster learns, for example, that the counselor did not comply with youth protection guidelines or if the SM sees that the scout did not complete requirements as written he will know not to give that counselor's name to another scout.

 

Our district does not put the list of counselors online, it is provided only to the SM and AC of troops. 

 

The reason SM sign blue cards before the merit badge is started is to facilitate conversation.

 

"7.0.0.3 The Scout, the Blue Card, and the Unit Leader

A few merit badges have certain restrictions, but otherwise

any registered Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or qualifi ed

Venturer or Sea Scout may work on any of them at any

time. Before he begins working with a merit badge

counselor, however, he is to have a discussion with his unit

leader. That a discussion has been held is indicated by the

unit leader’s signature on the Application for Merit Badge,

No. 34124, commonly called the “blue card.†Although it

is the unit leader’s responsibility to see that at least one

merit badge counselor is identifi ed from those approved

and made available, the Scout may have one in mind with

whom he would like to work. The unit leader and Scout

should come to agreement as to who the counselor will be.

Lacking agreement, the Scout must be allowed to work

with the counselor of his choice, so long as the counselor is

registered and has been approved by the council

advancement committee. However, see “Counselor

Approvals and Limitations,†7.0.1.4, for circumstances

when a unit leader may place limits on the number of merit

badges that may be earned from one counselor.

The Scout may also want to take advantage of

opportunities at merit badge fairs or midways, or at

rock-climbing gyms or whitewater rafting trips that

provide merit badge instruction. This is also acceptable,

but the Scout must still discuss the merit badge with the

unit leader and get a signed blue card. Should a Scout

want to change counselors, he should once again speak

with the unit leader to verify that the counselor is properly

registered and approved. Whatever the source, all merit

badge counselors must be registered and approved for

the merit badges they counsel. See “Counselor Approvals

and Limitations,†7.0.1.4, and “Registration and

Reregistration,†7.0.1.5.

A unit leader should consider making more of the process

than just providing a signature. The opportunity exists,

then and there, to provide inspiration and direction in a

young man’s life. Preliminary merit badge discussions can

lead to conversations about talents and interests, goal

setting, and the concept of “challenge by choice.†The

benefi ts can be much like those of a well-done

Scoutmaster conference.

The discussion a Scout is to have with the unit leader is

meant to be a growth-oriented and positive conversation.

The unit leader should discuss any concerns related to

working on the merit badge and provide appropriate

counseling. It is then the Scout’s decision whether or not

to proceed with the merit badge. The process is intended

to inform the Scout about what he may encounter along

the way, and perhaps to give him suggestions on how the

work might be approached. It also has the purpose of

keeping the unit leader up to date with what the members

of the unit are doing.

Because of the counseling opportunity involved, it

is the unit leader’s responsibility to sign blue cards.

In the role of giving leadership to the delivery of the

troop program, a Scoutmaster, for example, has a

better opportunity than other leaders to get to know

the youth. This background with the Scouts allows a

unit leader to add greater value in the discussion and

counseling intended to take place with the signing of

the card. However, in circumstances when this may

be impractical—for example, in large units or when

the unit leader may be absent—the unit leader may

delegate authority to sign cards and conduct the

discussions. This authority should be entrusted to a

knowledgeable assistant unit leader.

 

[Eagledad]

Yes, but you admitted there was nothing you could really do as the SM. Now in truth, I have had the same experience, so I always advised scouts away from the counselor. But, what if the scout could rate and provide comments on an electronic list.

 

I have little respect MBC (Merit Badge Colleges) because they typically skip much of the MB process and encourage sub par performance on all sides. Many of the bad habits the units had developed for signoffs and proper administering was caused by them following MBC procedures.

 

Barry

[andysmom]

After what heppened with my son and one MB he took at a local MBC, I understand why some SMs want to be "gate keepers" and make sure the Scouts are getting quality MB counselors. Son took a MB at a MBC  that the MB Counselor not only used out of date requirements, try about 10 years out of date, but the Scouts didn't do all of the old requirements even. As a Scouter, I could do nothing about it, he "earned" the MB because it was signed off as completed.

 

But as his dad, I talked to him, and made him realize why it's important to do all of the requirements. Maybe I was wrong in letting work on the old requirements, but officially he had already earned it. Besides he had fun doing the rest of the requirements anyway.

I don't see it as being a gate keeper.  I look at it as getting to know the scouts and wanting to be sure they have the best experience they can.  A scout won't walk up to most adults and start a conversation, but if they need to request a blue card and signature to start a merit badge and that leads to a conversation about what their goals are in life and what challenges they might be facing or even discussing what their favorite subject is in school I guess I don't see where that is a bad thing, but what do I know, I'm just a mom.

[Stosh]

And everything the SM does besides providing a signature could be construed as adding to the requirements.  Maybe the SM doesn't like the MBC, but if that person is vetted, trained and registered with the council, what good is denying a signature?  If the MBC isn't fulfilling his responsibility, what's that got to do with the SM's signature?   Nothing!  Don't talk to the scout, talk to the council personnel, camp director, MB activity chair, etc. and resolve the problem.  That's not the fault of the scout and doesn't need a signature. 

 

PL knows the MBC, recommends him to his member that wants to take the MB class.  PL has MB's of his own.  He knows how to teach the boy to use the phone to contact the MBC and set up instruction.  PL doesn't know of a MBC, then he goes and calls the scout office for a list of qualified MBC's.  Council doesn't give out the list to the boy.  He need support so he contacts SM who gets the list and gives it to him anyway.

 

Boy shows up with a MBC signed Blue Card.  SM or AC check out the name and it's not on the list.  They further research and the MBC is not registered as such.  Boy is told and he learns a valuable lesson in doing it right next time.  If he learns this early in his Scouting career he won't be pulling this stunt two weeks before his 18th birthday with this being the last MB needed.  It's called taking responsibility for oneself and no amount of SM signatures are going to make that any better.

[TAHAWK]

In the current (2013) version of the Guide to Advancement The BSA has specified a process to prevent the award of unearned Merit Badges.

 

"7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges From time to time, however, it may be discovered that merit badges could not actually have been earned. For example, a Scout who returns from summer camp or a merit badge fair with signed blue cards for an extraordinary number of badges could raise concerns. If, after consulting with those involved in the merit badge program—such as an event coordinator, the camp director, or a merit badge counselor—it becomes plainly evident that a youth could not have actually and personally fulfilled requirements as written, then the limited recourse outlined below is available. It may result in a decision that some or all of the requirements for a badge could not have been fulfilled, and thus, that the badge was not actually earned.

 

After such a consultation, the unit leader [i.e., the Scoutmaster], in a positive environment similar to that of a unit leader conference, discusses with the Scout the circumstances under which a merit badge in question was approved. A parent or an assistant unit leader should attend as an observer. The young man shall not be retested on the requirements, but a conversation with him can reveal if he was present at the class and actually and personally fulfi lled all the requirements. Such a discussion could cover who taught a class, what sort of activities took place, where and when they occurred, how testing was done, what the Scout might have brought home from the class, and other similar process-oriented details.

 

In most cases, with a fair and friendly approach, a young man who did not complete the requirements will admit it. Short of this, however, if it remains clear under the circumstances that some or all of the requirements could not have been met, then the merit badge is not reported or awarded, and does not count toward advancement. The unit leader then offers the name of at least one other merit badge counselor through whom any incomplete requirements may be finished. Note that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away†because, although signed off, it was never actually earned. Just as we avoid penalizing Scouts for the mistakes of adults, it should be a rare occurrence that a unit leader finds the need to question whether merit badges have been earned.

 

This procedure for recourse is limited and reserved only for clear and evident cases of noncompletion or nonparticipation. For example, the recourse could be allowed when it would not have been possible to complete a specific requirement at the location of the class, event, or camp; if time available was not sufficient—perhaps due to class size or other factors—for the counselor to observe that each Scout personally and actually completed all the requirements; if time available was insufficient for a “calendar†requirement such as for Personal Fitness or Personal Management; or if multiple merit badges in question were scheduled at the same time. This procedure is not to be viewed as an opportunity for retesting on requirements, for interjecting another set of standards over those of a merit badge counselor, or for debating issues such as whether a Scout was strong enough, mature enough, or old enough to have completed requirements.

 

Unit leaders who find it necessary to make use of this recourse must act quickly—if possible, within 30 days of discovery. It is inappropriate to delay a Scout’s advancement with anything less than a prompt decision.

 

If a Scout or his parent or guardian believes a unit leader has incorrectly determined a Scout has not earned a merit badge, or more than 30 days have passed without a reasonable explanation for the lack of a decision, they should address their concerns with the unit committee. They should first, however, develop a thorough understanding of the merit badge requirements and that each one must be passed exactly as it is set forth.

 

Upon encountering any merit badge program where BSA standards are not upheld, unit leaders are strongly encouraged to report the incident to the council advancement committee, preferably using the form found in the appendix (see “Reporting Merit Badge Counseling Concerns,†11.1.0.0)"

 

NOTE: Reporting "concerns" to the Council running a Merit Badge mill has not proved to result in any reduction in violation of the provisions of the Guide to Advancement, and, thus far, BSA refuses to use its power to correct the systematic violation.

[Gone]

Playing Devil's Advocate in red...

 

 

And everything the SM does besides providing a signature could be construed as adding to the requirements.  Maybe the SM doesn't like the MBC, but if that person is vetted, trained and registered with the council, what good is denying a signature?  If the MBC isn't fulfilling his responsibility, what's that got to do with the SM's signature?   Nothing!  Don't talk to the scout, talk to the council personnel, camp director, MB activity chair, etc. and resolve the problem.  That's not the fault of the scout and doesn't need a signature. 

 

The SM has the responsibility, which is allowed by BSA policy, to report that MBC to district and council as not abiding by the GTA and other policies around the MB process and award.

 

Boy shows up with a MBC signed Blue Card.  SM or AC check out the name and it's not on the list.  They further research and the MBC is not registered as such.  Boy is told and he learns a valuable lesson in doing it right next time.  If he learns this early in his Scouting career he won't be pulling this stunt two weeks before his 18th birthday with this being the last MB needed.  It's called taking responsibility for oneself and no amount of SM signatures are going to make that any better.

 

Exactly why we have the conversation with the scout before they begin work. Is the MBC registered? Does the family/scout understand the two-deep requirement? What requirements are being used? There are a ton of details we know as scouters that parents and scouts never think of. Better to give the scout the advice BEFORE he begins than to let him get too far down that path.

[andysmom]

Yes, but you admitted there was nothing you could really do as the SM. Now in truth, I have had the same experience, so I always advised scouts away from the counselor. But, what if the scout could rate and provide comments on an electronic list.

 

 

 

Barry

I have found that too many times a scout and leader have different opinions about how they would rate counselors.....scout's opinion, 5 stars easy, let me get away with completing a badge without doing the hardest requirement,, I ma sure most SM would not rate that particular counselor as 5 stars. 

I do know that many councils have MBC lists online, ours does not and we get a strict note with the list that we get each month that the list is NOT to be made public.  Even in the guide to advancement it states that scouts should not have access.

 

7.0.2.2 Web-Based Counselor Lists

Online counselor lists present a number of challenges.

They should only be placed on offi cial council websites

that conform to the National Council guidelines at

http://www.scouting.org/Marketing/Resources/

CouncilWeb.aspx. Give attention to protecting counselor

privacy. Limit access to those who have merit badge–

related responsibilities, such as advancement committee

members and chairs, or unit leaders and selected

assistants. Scouts should not have access. Their

interaction with the Scoutmaster in discussing work

on a badge, and obtaining a counselor’s name,

is an important part of the merit badge plan.

 

 

And everything the SM does besides providing a signature could be construed as adding to the requirements.  Maybe the SM doesn't like the MBC, but if that person is vetted, trained and registered with the council, what good is denying a signature?  If the MBC isn't fulfilling his responsibility, what's that got to do with the SM's signature?   Nothing!  Don't talk to the scout, talk to the council personnel, camp director, MB activity chair, etc. and resolve the problem.  That's not the fault of the scout and doesn't need a signature. 

 

PL knows the MBC, recommends him to his member that wants to take the MB class.  PL has MB's of his own.  He knows how to teach the boy to use the phone to contact the MBC and set up instruction.  PL doesn't know of a MBC, then he goes and calls the scout office for a list of qualified MBC's.  Council doesn't give out the list to the boy.  He need support so he contacts SM who gets the list and gives it to him anyway.

 

Boy shows up with a MBC signed Blue Card.  SM or AC check out the name and it's not on the list.  They further research and the MBC is not registered as such.  Boy is told and he learns a valuable lesson in doing it right next time.  If he learns this early in his Scouting career he won't be pulling this stunt two weeks before his 18th birthday with this being the last MB needed.  It's called taking responsibility for oneself and no amount of SM signatures are going to make that any better.

I don't think talking to a scout while he is signing a completed blue card would be considered "adding to the requirements"  I never said that a SM should deny a signature.  I was pointing out WHY a SM should be meeting with a scout before starting and after completing a MB.  It is a way of starting a conversation.

 

In our troop the PLs do not "know" the MBC, especially the ones that he has not worked with and even more especially the ones outside of our troop.  We fully expect the PL to work with the boys to teach and practice how to call a MBC to set us a meeting.

 

What if your PL "knows a MBC" who has let his YP lapse.  How is PL supposed to know that.  Poor kid under him completes the MB and finished it, then when it gets checked finds out that MBC has fallen off the MBC list, how is that teaching him anything.  Taking responsibility for oneself means doing things the way they are supposed to be done, which is how it is spelled out in the GTA.  Scouts talks with SM about merit badge, gets a signed blue card and a few names of counselors, completes the work, turns to blue card back into his troop to be signed by the SM