Do We Really Need Eagle Required Merit Badges?

[blw2]

yeah, fair enough point about the boy thing.... that's a BSA thing (I personally think that i MIGHT like the coed approach as the do in the UK better, anyway... but that's another thread)

 

As I understand from my somewhat limited reading about Baden Powell, his plan was using concepts from his scouting manual, which was written for soldiers to teach outdoor methods, but BP found that it was being used back home by boys for fun in the woods....

So he was using some of these concepts as a 'method' to teach boys certain values so that they could grow to be good upstanding men and good citizens.  As I understand it, It wasn't so much about teaching them to be expert outdoorsman even in the beginning.  That was just the conduit for learning.

 

Is that not right?

[Stosh]

yeah, fair enough point about the boy thing.... that's a BSA thing (I personally think that i MIGHT like the coed approach as the do in the UK better, anyway... but that's another thread)

 

As I understand from my somewhat limited reading about Baden Powell, his plan was using concepts from his scouting manual, which was written for soldiers to teach outdoor methods, but BP found that it was being used back home by boys for fun in the woods....

So he was using some of these concepts as a 'method' to teach boys certain values so that they could grow to be good upstanding men and good citizens.  As I understand it, It wasn't so much about teaching them to be expert outdoorsman even in the beginning.  That was just the conduit for learning.

 

Is that not right?

 

 

Not necessarily off thread with the male only.  LB-P established Boy Scouts, others formed Girl Guides.  So co-ed is a recent alteration from the original intent.  It's always interesting how many contortions and gyrations people go through to justify unnecessary changes.  If people don't like the program, find one that better suits your needs but simply changing it to one's own agenda only opens the door for everyone to demand changes as well.  

 

To think today's Boy Scouting in any country is reflective of the original program is taking a rather naive view of the program.

 

So, in order to stick with the OP of the thread.  NO, Eagle MB's of any sort are unnecessary.  The original program had as it's highest rank, First Class.  Everything else is added fluff to create the appearance of Ooooh, Aaaaaah to  have people think Eagle scouts are somehow "special, different, etc." than the run of the mlll First Class Scout.

 

Over the years I have seen some excellent First Class scouts and seen some pretty mediocre Eagle Scouts.  The MB's didn't make one iota bit of difference.  The factors leading up to that were not part of the MB program.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Stosh

[TAHAWK]

blw2, the purpose of Scouting, according to BP,  was to educate boys to be good, fit citizens of the Empire.  The outdoor program served those purposes and was attractive to boys, so it was the main method of Scouting as BP saw it.

 

 

BSA has greatly changed BP's original program, for example by providing for the Scouts to elect their leaders and eliminating over time within its program the notion of African inferiority.  (Other changes make me less happy, but I am prejudiced by experiences had and missed.)

 

 

Girl Guides was founded by BP in 1910, named for the elite Guides regiment of the Indian Army.   B-P's sister was its first national leader.  Later his wife, Olave, a former Scoutmaster, was the Guides UK leader.  Girl Guiding still exists as an all-girl program.  Its highest award in the UK is the Baden Powell Challenge Award.

 

 

In my opinion, whether an individual Eagle Scout is someone special depends.  What it depends upon is not merely Merit Badges earned or otherwise obtained, although they may constitute some evidence to be used in making the determination.  The troop they are in has much to do with what sort of ability, character, and accomplishments they represent.  I have experienced both extremes of the range of troop sand Eagle Scouts.  

 

Limited as I am by personal experiences and beliefs, I think that, as a group, Eagle Scouts are much above average.

[fred johnson]

...

 

If it's a given that Scouter's and perhaps the Public's perception of the Eagle Scout rank is that an Eagle Scout should be able to be dropped in the woods and essentially shrug it off as barely a challenge, within in the listing of required merit badges, what badges would you take out and what badges might you replace them with?

 

...

 

Yeah, that's a delusion.  Rank skills requirements are about producing a member of a group and a reasonably proficient camper.  It's very very different than producing an rugged outdoors-man or a survivalist.  

 

Merit badges selection is not the answer either as merit badges are "introductory" and much less than "certifications" of ability.   Very few are advanced beyond introductory, maybe backpacking.  Even then, if I wanted my sons to become good swimmers or life guards, I'd send them to the YMCA or the Red Cross Life Guard program.  Same for first aid.  You want your son proficient, I'd be looking elsewhere.  

 

The BSA Eagle scout is not about survivalist skills.  It's about being a well rounded individual who can lead and serve his society.  It's about exposing scouts to interests they might develop further.  

Edited April 18, 2015 by fred johnson

[Hedgehog]

Yeah, that's a delusion.  Rank skills requirements are about producing a member of a group and a reasonably proficient camper.  It's very very different than producing an rugged outdoors-man or a survivalist.  

 

Merit badges selection is not the answer either as merit badges are "introductory" and much less than "certifications" of ability.   Very few are advanced beyond introductory, maybe backpacking.

 

They are somewhere in between introductory and certifications.  Backpacking requires a 30 mile treck, Camping requires 20 nights in the outdoors, Bicycling requires a 50 mile ride, Cooking requires preparing three meals in the outdoors and at home, Hiking requires a 20 mile hike, Scuba requires PADI certification, etc.

 

Isn't the Baden Powel quote that "Scouting is a game for boys played in the outdoors"? 

[Stosh]

I believe the T-FC requirements are supposed to cover the basic outdoor skills necessary for being in the woods.  Food, shelter, clothing, first aid, rope work and lashing, swimming, compass with map.  I'm thinking if done the way it is supposed to be done, there would be no need for outdoor craft/skills necessary on the MB level for Eagle.  Every First Class scout should be proficient in the woods.  If not, then the pencil whipping has got to stop.

[TAHAWK]

IMO nowhere near expertise or proficiency, if beyond basic.  

 

If he relied on the Wilderness Survival MB pamphlet he would have been seriously misled on basic and critical issues..

 

20 nights in the outdoors is a test of being in the outdoors.  One can only hope for increase in skill.   That's less than a year in a proper troop - 11 year-old.

 

I rode to school on my bike for almost a school year before it broke - over 1200 miles' and I had no idea how to fix it.  I was far from a proficient cyclist.  Twenty miles walking - several times over - was walking to school when I could not fix my bike.  (Today, I guess my parents might get arrested for not properly supervising me every peddle/step of the way.  How does one "have" a "paper route" these days?)

 

The tripod lashing illustration and directions are incorrect (although the directions used to be worse).

 

Cooking three meals does not make a "cook."  That's me getting home before Mom the first week of school and "starving."  (Cooking MB back then could be done in half a day in your back yard.)

 

 

 

 

No results found for 

"Scouting is a game for boys played in the outdoors".

But it sounds like something he would have agreed with. (Well, more likely "Something with which he would have agreed.")

Edited April 19, 2015 by TAHAWK

[Stosh]

Not having proficiency is an inconvenience.  Not having knowledge is a serious problem.

 

I have camped regularly for 60 years.  I have done cooking for 45 years, 50 of them in and around campfires.  Once I got lost out hunting but managed to find my way back to the car.

 

Wilderness Survival MB?  I have the knowledge to know what to do in such situations but I have zero experience.

[Hedgehog]

OK, I'm may have been paraphrasing a paraphrasing with the "Scouting is a game for boys played in the outdoors."

 

The aphorism "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" is often attributed to Lord Baden-Powell, but it makes its first appearance in the Boy Scouts of America's third edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters in 1936, written by William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt. 

The rough idea of Scouting as a purposeful game is introduced in "Chat 2," "The Game of Scouting," on page 24 under the heading "Scouting in a Nutshell:" 

 

Here, then, is Scouting in a nutshell: A game for boys under the leadership of boys with the wise guidance and counsel of a grown-up who has still the enthusiasm of youth in him. A purposeful game, but a game just the same, a game that develops character by practice, that trains for citizenship--through experience in the out-of-doors [emphasis in the original]. 

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/scouting_game_purpose.htm

 

OK, it was Green Bar Bill.  But it does sound like something Lord Baden Powel would have said:

 

 

“Scouting is a game for boys under the leadership of boys under the direction of a man.â€

 

“We are not a club or a Sunday school class, but a school of the woods.â€

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/Quotes.pdf

 

 

This is what makes Scouting different from school or clubs or church.  It is the idea of teaching character through games played in the woods.  Being able to take care of yourself is completely different in a week at Computer Camp while living at home than a week at summer camp with your Troop.  Take care of your buddies has a completely different meaning when you are on a backpacking trip with 8 guys than when you are sitting in a class with 30 other kids.

 

I joke with the guys that most merit badges have two components- the "needs to be done" and the stuff that is fun.  The stuff that is fun is all done in the outdoors.  The merit badges that don't have the fun component should be revised or eliminated or made optional.  

 

I have a bunch of guys that would love to spend summer camp hiking, backpacking, mountain biking and camping under the stars as part of a Venture Patrol but unless I coordinate some other adults to handle the Citizenship and Communications badges as a Troop, those guys will be spending summer camp in "school" being pencil whipped.  At the end of the week, which do you think would have those boys grow more in responsibility, confidence and the principles of the Scout Law?

Edited April 19, 2015 by Hedgehog

[CalicoPenn]

 

I have a bunch of guys that would love to spend summer camp hiking, backpacking, mountain biking and camping under the stars as part of a Venture Patrol but unless I coordinate some other adults to handle the Citizenship and Communications badges as a Troop, those guys will be spending summer camp in "school" being pencil whipped.  At the end of the week, which do you think would have those boys grow more in responsibility, confidence and the principles of the Scout Law?

 

Should we take this to mean that the parents are pressuring you to make sure the boys do these Eagle Scout-required badges at camp instead of hiking, backpacking, mountain biking and camping under the stars?  Should we take this to mean that the parents are pressuring/coercing the unit leaders into doing merit badges as a unit instead of leaving it to the boys to handle it?

 

I know what I would be doing - finding a unit that could use my skills and leadership to do it the right way.  I would not be taking a week out of my life to go to summer camp to babysit a bunch of teenagers to make sure they earn those Eagle Scout merit badges.  I would not be arranging for anyone to come in and do the merit badges as a Troop.   I would not be doing anything with merit badges other than providing a Scout with a list of counselors and a blue card. 

 

It's the middle of April - if it were me, I would be having a meeting with the committee, advocating for the boys that would live to spend summer camp doing just what you told us they would love to do, insisting that the boys be allowed to do this or telling them to find someone else to accompany them to camp.

[Hedgehog]

Should we take this to mean that the parents are pressuring you to make sure the boys do these Eagle Scout-required badges at camp instead of hiking, backpacking, mountain biking and camping under the stars?  Should we take this to mean that the parents are pressuring/coercing the unit leaders into doing merit badges as a unit instead of leaving it to the boys to handle it?

 

It is the boys own choice.  They are motivated boys who are working toward Eagle.  They know that those are the required merit badges that they need to move from Life to Eagle.  Our summer camp offers all of Citizenship and Communcaitions merit badges as part of a "Trai to Eagle" program.  Last year our Troop started a Venture Patrol at summer camp where the boys in the Venture patrol did camping, backpacking, mountain biking, etc.  My discussion with the boys went something like "Are you doing the Venture patrol this year?" "I don't think we can because we have to do the Trail to Eagle thing because otherwise we don't know how we will get those badges."  My response to them was "Let me see what I can do" because a scout leader is helpful.  

 

In my mind, the easiest solution is to have the Troop run classes for those badges because:  1) our district's MBC list is a mess due to switching counsels; 2) most MBCs for those badges in the area (based on my old MBC list) are "Troop Only"; 3) it would require a lot more effort for the 5 boys to each work with 4 different counselors on the badges independently rather than as part of a class; 4) we have some adults in the Troop that are qualified and interested in teaching the merit badges; and 5) the adults in the Troop tend to do a better job with merit badges than camp counselors.  

 

Also, for clarification, when I talk about "doing merit badges as a Troop"  I mean one of the adults associated with the Troop (parents and leaders) teaching a class with 5 to 8 kids who want to do the merit badge -- not doing it at a Troop meeting and not doing it for all the scouts at once.  Our Troop merit badges are done in small groups over 4 to 6  hour long "classes" before Troop meetings.

 

My point is that the "classroom" type merit Eagle required badges seem to be out of sorts with my idea of what Scouting should be.

[moosetracker]

Not having a good list of district MBC's sounds like a real hindrance to your district..Perhaps you can ask around at a round table.. You may find one that isn't known because of the poor list, or one that usually works with a troop, but when asked will come to your aid.. Or perhaps someone still in the Cub Scout program, who has yet to think about being an MBC but one of the ones you are asking about it aligns with their occupation..  When we were about to leave the troop (son aged out) they found someone who wasn't in Scouting but was willing to do all 3 Citizens... Some one in our troop was a lawyer and she approached a state judge to see if he would offer them..

[packsaddle]

We ran into the 'troop only' thing as well. I can't understand why this situation is allowed to exist. Why bother to list MBCs to whom no one outside of specific troops have access? It makes no sense.

[Hedgehog]

Not having a good list of district MBC's sounds like a real hindrance to your district..Perhaps you can ask around at a round table.. You may find one that isn't known because of the poor list, or one that usually works with a troop, but when asked will come to your aid.. Or perhaps someone still in the Cub Scout program, who has yet to think about being an MBC but one of the ones you are asking about it aligns with their occupation..  When we were about to leave the troop (son aged out) they found someone who wasn't in Scouting but was willing to do all 3 Citizens... Some one in our troop was a lawyer and she approached a state judge to see if he would offer them..

 

The main problem is that when our district transferred councils (our old counsil disbanded and the districts went to nearby councils), they had everyone resubmit merit badge applications and adult applications (even if we were registered as leaders).  The new council is now going though that to prepare a new list which should be done by this summer.  I have the old list (from about 18 months ago), but most of the Citizenship and Communcation counselors in the area are listed as being "Troop Only."  On that basis, I decided it easiest to recruit home grown talent.

 

I am already approved for Citizenship in the World, we have several other adults (lawyers, teachers, folks involved in town poitics, etc.) who can qualify as MBCs for the other badges.  My task is to get the commitment from these folks to get certified as MBC and to get the commitment to hold the classes -- I don't want to tell the boys that the don't need to take them at camp unless I'm sure they will have the opportunity to take these classes with the Troop.

[Hedgehog]

We ran into the 'troop only' thing as well. I can't understand why this situation is allowed to exist. Why bother to list MBCs to whom no one outside of specific troops have access? It makes no sense.

 

I think that the councils / districts keep a single list of merit badge counselors which includes the Troop Only and when you ask for it you get the list with everyone on it, including the folks designated as Troop Only.