Leaders Without Kids In The Troop

[pargolf44067]

As I am about to embark on another term as Scoutmaster of my troop, this time without any sons in the troop as scouts (although my oldest son is helping me as a leader), I am curious how many of you esteemed fellow forum members are also active leaders in troops that your son(s) are no longer members.

 

I am really re-energized to work with the boys and get them back on track again.  I am interested to find out what the parents and other leaders in the troop think of your involvement.  Are they appreciative of time and effort or do they give you a hard time as being an "old timers" who are overstaying their welcome.

 

Like I have said in the past, I have had nothing but positive comments about coming back to my troop, but I was wondering how long that lasts!

Edited April 11, 2015 by pargolf44067

[packsaddle]

I know of several very successful troops whose SM is unmarried and without children. This is not common but these individuals seem to be well-known and well-liked enough that the community entrusts their boys those troops. 

You'll probably get your first negative comments when you move toward a boy-led, outdoor-oriented program, lol. 

[blw2]

I'm a cubmaster, but I'll still comment for a data point of what others think....

I admire you for doing it, but there is a part of me that wonders why you would.

 

speaking as solely a parent for a moment, I might even be suspicious depending on how I read you....

but unless there were other flags or concerns I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

I was CC for our CO's troop for a while, but with no skin in the game, my heart was only in it so far.  Our troops SM is also the pack's CC currently.  Ditto for him.

 

But on the other hand, I have often thought on the Cub level, how nice it would be to have one or maybe two perpetual leaders in the pack to hold things together.... a permanent tiger leader for example would be like gold!  I've always pictured a retired school teacher that just likes kids and has time on her hands in that role.  It could be oh so valuable as a foundation for the pack.

 

It's a fine line for sure.... but generally I admire you and others for doing it.  I know first hand, that it takes a special person.

[moosetracker]

I would say if your a stranger trying to come in with no kids you may get suspicion.. But, if you are a known member usually you are very welcomed..

 

Two things I know that causes it to grow a little sour...

 

1) if the old-timer starts getting stuck in their ways and starts thinking that they have more say in the direction of the troop then parents with kids in the troop.. As an old-timer it is good to give the wisdom of the ages, but in the end if people want to experiment with new things (whether it be the scouts or the parents of the scouts) they really should have more say in the direction.. If they fall on their faces, they have learned and you are there to pick them up.. But if the experiment works, and they get a more robust enthusiastic troop because it offers new challenges and it isn't the same old boring routine.. All is good.

 

2) If the old timer starts loosing it.. That is sad.. There are a few (Luckily the ones I know are at council level)  that have been greats in their day, but now we try to keep them involved in small ways, but cringe if they want to take on more, and no one wants to tell them they should pack it in.   One guy was a fabulous orator and was asked to be at Eagle ceremonies and at trainings and various other things.. Now we try to keep him out of speaking though he still wants to, yet he can stretch what was suppose to be 5 minutes into an hour talking and on nothing related to the topic..  Another on the Eagle board who keeps asking the same questions over and over again.. And they took going out to look at projects away early because when the scout would call, he would tell the scout he wasn't his counselor... Also he really should not be driving anymore.. I think he did recently stop coming because of driving issues.

[LeCastor]

Interesting question...

 

I am married but have no children.  When I decided to give back to Scouting after a 15-year break, I registered as an ASM with a local Troop. Then, a few months later the out-going SM asked me to take over.  Sure, some folks wondered why some dude in his early 30s would want to be involved with a Boy Scout Troop, but I think it was pretty clear that my actions spoke loudly.  I've been with the Troop now for over four years as Scoutmaster and I've helped bolster the Patrol Method.  

 

Truly, it doesn't matter if you have children in a Troop, Pack, or Crew.  If you are a Scouter who believes in the movement of Scouting I say go for it!  Who gives a hoot (or tail slap in my case  ) if you don't have a kid in the unit?!  Actions and values are very visible.  Just lead by example.

[Stosh]

My boy quit scouts back in the 1990's.  He was surprised when I didn't.

 

I have a long history but it isn't always with the BSA.  I was a psychology minor in college and got involved with youth support groups and had a great time.  NYPUM (National Youth Program Using Minibikes) was part of the YMCA and this program was for troubled youth.  Then I worked in an institution for problem kids.  (The first thing they told me was always sit in a chair with the back to the wall.) That was fun.  I also worked one-on-one tutoring high school kids that were falling behind in their homework   Went on to Seminary and worked in a BSA Council Office part time setting up Explorer posts.  In my 2 year stint I organized 42 different posts.  This was followed by 12 years of parish ministry and of course that involved the youth.  I taught Vacation Bible School to 5th graders, the 6th, 7th and 8th graders were Confirmation and then there was the high school youth group.  Following that I dropped the ministry but continued with the youth groups in the churches I was a member.  Then when my boy was old enough for Tigers, he and I were both involved until he quit as a Star scout.  I didn't.  I still do both church youth groups as well as working as a SM of a new troop I organized last May.Along the way I also have 13 years of Venturing experience as a Crew Advisor.

 

When it isn't fun anymore, I'll wrap it up.

 

How do the parents react to my work?  Well, they never find middle ground.  Either they love it or they hate it.  I have awarded the District Award of Merit and kicked out of my position as SM all in the same year.  I then turned around and started a new troop at the request of the council.  

 

And so how did it go with the kids?  My first three confirmation students from North Dakota rural area ... One was killed in a motorcycle accident 4 years ago and the other two are friends on Facebook that post about themselves on a regular basis.  The troop that I was kicked out of, the two Eagle scouts are friends on Facebook as well.  The one posted this evening about going to a neat car show down in Oklahoma City.  

 

My ASM of the new troop now is also the District Unit Commissioner.  She asked to be my ASM because of my work and insistence on running a troop as boy-led, patrol-method and she wanted to learn now to do it that way.

 

Like I said, there's no middle ground.

 

I've been working with youth for 45+ years now and 30+ of them in Scouting.  I had to give up the Venturing Crew because it was more than I could take at my age of 64.  Scouting has a few more years before I hang up the beads.

[Cambridgeskip]

Maybe it's a transatlantic cultural difference but here in the UK I've never had any kind of problem in not being a parent of a scout. In fact certainly at my group the majority of adult leaders are not.

 

To be honest I think there is an advantage in not being a parent. It means that the scouts see you a bit differently in a way I can't quite put my finger on.

 

Is it really so unusual to have non parent leaders in the USA?

[moosetracker]

Is it really so unusual to have non parent leaders in the USA?

 

It is hard to get anyone to volunteer.. Usually the only way to get them is to twist the arms of the parents in the unit with the threat of if they don't step up then the unit will fold..

 

But there is also a fear of pedophiles or really anything (like mosquitoes or normal play) in this country, that I would say has gone from being a good thing, to being paranoid.. So, although we do get some with no children volunteering, if they are not known in the unit because they recently were scouts from the unit, or their kids were in the unit and they stayed on even after they left.. Very rare if you just sign up as a stranger with no kids.. Many times the unit rejects the application due to being suspicious..

 

My son wanted to stay in and had issues in the troop he aged out from.. So he went looking for a new unit to volunteer in, even though he was young and had the history of being in scouting since he was a tiger scout, he was not welcomed to join.. He finally did work with a cub pack for a while, but he almost was a one man band and got burnt out after 2 years.. The pack took him because none of the parent wanted to do ANYTHING..   He is currently content to hold down 3 or 4 jobs at District level (in two different districts) currently...

[tyke]

In the UK I would say that most leaders kids arn't in the troop, and as a scout leader if someone comes along to help, I couldn't carex less if they have kids or not as long as they are enthusiastic, work well with the kids and pass all the checks. In my troop all 3 of my assistant leaders don't have kids in the troop. You all seem a suspicious lot, if someone doesn't have kids but wants to give back to his community and youth it doesn't make them a paedophile.

[Cambridgeskip]

It is hard to get anyone to volunteer.. Usually the only way to get them is to twist the arms of the parents in the unit with the threat of if they don't step up then the unit will fold..

 

But there is also a fear of pedophiles or really anything (like mosquitoes or normal play) in this country, that I would say has gone from being a good thing, to being paranoid.. So, although we do get some with no children volunteering, if they are not known in the unit because they recently were scouts from the unit, or their kids were in the unit and they stayed on even after they left.. Very rare if you just sign up as a stranger with no kids.. Many times the unit rejects the application due to being suspicious..

 

My son wanted to stay in and had issues in the troop he aged out from.. So he went looking for a new unit to volunteer in, even though he was young and had the history of being in scouting since he was a tiger scout, he was not welcomed to join.. He finally did work with a cub pack for a while, but he almost was a one man band and got burnt out after 2 years.. The pack took him because none of the parent wanted to do ANYTHING..   He is currently content to hold down 3 or 4 jobs at District level (in two different districts) currently...

Wow. That sounds so strange. To be rejected as a volunteer here you basically need to have prior convictions for violence/sex offences/theft in all it's forms. That or a group exec who don't know what day it is. We do have some of those. A leader from my group has just tried to transfer to another group nearer her house. Despite being a woodbadged cub leader with 18 years experience she had to ambush an exec meeting to get them to actually acknowledge her existence. That was due to incompetence rather than suspicion though.

 

To be honest a non parent leader is to be welcomed as in my experience they stay longer. While some parent leaders do become long term faces a small majority tend to move on when their kid moves on and so need replacing.

[Stosh]

Maybe it's a transatlantic cultural difference but here in the UK I've never had any kind of problem in not being a parent of a scout. In fact certainly at my group the majority of adult leaders are not.

 

To be honest I think there is an advantage in not being a parent. It means that the scouts see you a bit differently in a way I can't quite put my finger on.

 

Is it really so unusual to have non parent leaders in the USA?

 

Leaders with kids in the program have to be there.  Leaders with no kids in the program are there because they want to be.  Kids pick up on that.

 

It's a statistically proven fact that kids who have parents that aren't interested in religion sometimes become religious on their own.  If just the mom is religious about half the kids tend to remain religious whereas with just dads that percentage jumps up to a bit over 75% and those kids who have both parents active in religion tend to be religious most of the time.  The point being is the comparison between the dynamics of moms and dads.  Moms are expected by society to get the kids into religion, where dads aren't, so when dads do get involved it carries more weight.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Stosh

[qwazse]

...

To be honest a non parent leader is to be welcomed as in my experience they stay longer. While some parent leaders do become long term faces a small majority tend to move on when their kid moves on and so need replacing.

I noticed the same perception decades ago when I lived in London. The vicar asked if I would teach the Sunday school kids along with another single fellow (a Londoner ... who helped with translation.) The thought that maybe a parent should have that responsibility over some Yank on a short stay never crossed anyone's mind.

 

In the US, there is a sense that such things should at least have parent supervision. But, we also have many of our young singles scrambling to pay college debts and our parents of former scouts scrambling to make sure their kids get through college with minimum debt. A lot of folks don't commit to having kids until they are able to commit time to raising them, so many parents see volunteering with their kid's unit as part of that commitment.

[andysmom]

In our troop the SM and ASM generally have boys in the unit.  When their boys age out they join the committee or move on to positions in the district or council.

One of the problems that we have when leaders don't have "skin in the game" is that they loose touch with what is relevant to the boys, for example, time commitments  for school and other activiites and methods of communication etc.  When you have a boy in the program you know what else goes on in the lives of the boys, when your don't you tend to forget how busy they are or what you can reasonably expect from boys of that age.  I have heard more stories about the "glory days" that I care to admit.  I will advise you to keep training, just because you have done SMS 10 years ago you can (and should IMO) do it again.

[Stosh]

In our troop the SM and ASM generally have boys in the unit.  When their boys age out they join the committee or move on to positions in the district or council.

One of the problems that we have when leaders don't have "skin in the game" is that they loose touch with what is relevant to the boys, for example, time commitments  for school and other activiites and methods of communication etc.  When you have a boy in the program you know what else goes on in the lives of the boys, when your don't you tend to forget how busy they are or what you can reasonably expect from boys of that age.  I have heard more stories about the "glory days" that I care to admit.  I will advise you to keep training, just because you have done SMS 10 years ago you can (and should IMO) do it again.

 

To a certain degree, you are correct, but from my perspective of having spent my adult life working with kids (45 years), sometimes I am more "in the game" than a lot of parents.  I have seen the changes over the years, I see a variety of different kids, I know kids in general in a somewhat object manner because I DON'T have skin the game, so to speak.  I don't have an agenda that favors my kid.  I'm not myopic when it comes to comparisons to "other people's kids."

 

Let me tell you one thing, kids of Scouting age hide a lot of stuff from their parents that they don't get away with when dealing with people who don't think this kid is the greatest thing in the world.

 

In certain respects my goals for the boy is far different.  Parents tend to not want their kids to really grow up and "move on" with their lives.  They tend to be a bit selfish on this point, but I constantly develop boys that do grow up, take on skills to meet the challenges they are going to face once they move out of the house.  

 

One of my Eagle scouts is deep into his college career, nice girlfriend, delayed entry into US Air Force, but active in Air National Guard, Fully trained SM, and WB.  He's 23 years old and when he was 15, he was the biggest brat in the troop and his father was the SM.  I took over and I didn't have any skin in the game.  

 

Did I help this boy turn his life around and grow up?  Well his parents think so and have on numerous occasions thanked me for it even well after he left home.

 

There's pros and cons on both sides of the table here.  I think it just depends on the boy and how he reacts that will influence his scouting career with the different adult leaders.   As a matter of fact, Ideally both kinds of leaders in a troop would be an excellent combination in my opinion.

[moosetracker]

There's pros and cons on both sides of the table here.  I think it just depends on the boy and how he reacts that will influence his scouting career with the different adult leaders.   As a matter of fact, Ideally both kinds of leaders in a troop would be an excellent combination in my opinion.

 

I do agree with that.. As long as both listen and respect each others views and where they want to take the troop, the mix is good.