How To Handle Redundant Requirments

[fred johnson]

... (I could have sworn one of the reasons for putting together that "new" advancement guide that is numbered like some kind of ISO Quality document or Military Standards manual was to make things clearer)....

 

The first GTA ... 2011 ... replaced the ACPP and did clarify greatly.  It left less flexibility in the program on topics such as this.  But then BSA received strong feedback.   The 2011 GTA was then replaced with the 2013 GTA that includes wishy-washy language as above that allows troops to justify doing what they choose to do.  

 

IMHO, BSA received a huge amount of push back on having clear rules for everyone because everyone does NOT agree on how the program should work.   Some say that is good.  Some say otherwise.   

I just looked it up.  Section 4.2.3.6 was added in the 2013 GTA.  2011 GTA did not have it.  Similar thing happened with positions of responsibility.  2013 GTA re-worked the rules to give the troop "limited" flexibility.  

Edited April 10, 2015 by fred johnson

[perdidochas]

There is "should" and "a good idea" and "what's required".   Repeating is useful to refresh and entrench knowledge.  

 

BUT unless BSA say's you can't as found about cooking above, then don't read more into the requirements than are there.  Setup a rich and rewarding program so they can keep growing in knowledge and skill.  But advancement is what it is.  Support the scout.

 

The question is what is supporting the scout?  Is it better for the scout to do the cooking requirement for T-2-1 separately from cooking for Camping MB? IMHO, it is, and I believe the Scout is supported by doing each requirement separately, albeit slightly redundant. 

[perdidochas]

I stay out of the MB selection process for the boys as well.

 

Last year I had four of my Scout ranked (pre-Tenderfoot) sign up for Wilderness Survival along with Archery and Swimming and First Aid.  Much to my surprise all four of them got at least 2 of them complete and two of them completed all four.  All this in spite of the fact that they were strongly suggested not to do it that they should focus on the T-FC instead.  Well, that was the 5th session so they took that too.  

 

I guess It pays to just sit back and watch because sometimes the adult wisdom thingy doesn't work too well and the boys end up kinda surprising ya.

 

This year will be there second year, but the new Webelos boy has signed up for Swimming, First Aid, Cooking, Archery and Wilderness Survival.  Really?

 

The sad part of it all is that they are having so much fun that none of them have gotten TF yet.  They work on the advancements, but the PL has some pretty high standards the boys have to meet.  He insists that the boys be proficient in the skill before he signs off on it.

 

The only thing I do with the MB selection, is to help them plan their day. If they want to take First Aid, and First Aid is only offered in the morning, I'll help them figure out what else they can take. Now, if they ask for suggestions, I might say--this one looks fun or I haven't seen that in other camps (we tend to travel out of council for summer camp). 

[Stosh]

One also has to take into account the fact that the focus of the instruction is different and must be taken into consideration.  Cooking for advancement is looking for proficiency.  Is he doing the job correctly?  On the other hand Cooking MB is developing a sense of appreciation for the job, not just that it is done correctly.  If one is looking at it from that perspective, I would be hard pressed to think that the work of the scout could be accredited to both focuses.  Either way, if one wants to just do the job, then it would qualify equally well for both.

[CalicoPenn]

So Basketry isn't a First Year tradition in your troop?  Though we weren't required to do it, it was a tradition in my Troop for all first year campers to complete the Basketry Merit Badge.  Our summer camp had a required one hour in camp site siesta for all units after lunch (which was really an excuse to give staff a break in the middle of the day) and this was a perfect filler for it.  Besides baskets, an awful lot of lanyards, leatherwork and whittling was done - and it was very common for older scouts who had already earned the Basketry Merit Badge to buy themselves a kit at the trading post and just do one for the heck of it - which turns out to be a great way for older scouts to share a rather obscure skill with younger scouts and to help them along with their projects.

[Stosh]

I used to make suggestions like that to the new boys, but as a boy-led, patrol-method troop, it is entirely up to their PL and members to decide what's best for each boy.  The PL does try to get the new scouts to buddy up to take classes together but doesn't insist on it.  I do like it when the boys take at least one fun MB that is of interest to them besides the Eagle MB's.  As long as the boys are having fun and I don't have to listen to parents complain, I'm good with the program the boys are following.  

[pack54succasunna]

 

Now - my question to you is:

 

Why are you starting to help Scouts with their summer camp merit badge requirements?  What exactly are you doing?  About the only thing that you folks should be doing is providing a list of merit badges offered at camp, strongly suggesting that certain merit badges not be pursued at camp that can easily be done back home (and I'm of a mind to not disagree with units stating outright that certain merit badges, like any of the citizenship badges, or any other non-outdoor badges, including first aid, will not be allowed to be earned at Summer Camp.  I'm also of a mind to not disagree with any unit that says their Scouts can not attend any T to FC classes at summer camp.  Once the lad chooses the merit badges they might want to take, the only other thing as an adult I would do is point them in the direction of the merit badge books, answer any question about pre-reqs and requirements that I can,  and suggest to any Scout that chooses one of the shooting sports badges to start saving up some money now because those badges can cost a bit of coinage to complete.   

 

Well the main reason I was asking this question was for my own son.

 

Our Scouts are very young at this point, there are only two (maybe 3) Scouts in High School.  So we are trying to provide extra quidance to our PL and SPLs.

 

I was also asking because of the couple old timer leaders that want everything done their way, sometimes even after we tell them we talked to someone at council and were told the correct way to do things.

 

 

 

 

Can you elaborate on why you would discourage the boys from taking certain MBs?  Is it because those you discourage are more of a "Classroom" type MB instead of utilizing the outdoors?  My train of thought for my son was that I spent $400 on Summer Camp and he needs 3 Eagle MB's and 1 Elective MB for Star and I want him to get these done.  I was going to have him do Camping, First Aid and Cooking.  It seems Cooking will not be a good choice because he won't be able to get all of the Pre-Reqs done.

[pack54succasunna]

I used to make suggestions like that to the new boys, but as a boy-led, patrol-method troop, it is entirely up to their PL and members to decide what's best for each boy.  The PL does try to get the new scouts to buddy up to take classes together but doesn't insist on it.  I do like it when the boys take at least one fun MB that is of interest to them besides the Eagle MB's.  As long as the boys are having fun and I don't have to listen to parents complain, I'm good with the program the boys are following.  

 

Unfortunately we're not at a level right now where the PL is able to do this.

[Stosh]

Unfortunately we're not at a level right now where the PL is able to do this.

 

Were a new troop < 1 year old and all the boys are cross over from last year into the new troop except one who is a cross over this year.  .... We're not at that level either, but we do it that way anyway.  

[DuctTape]

pack54... The one thing i noticed in your last posts is that these were MB's YOU wanted him to get done. What does your son want to do? Why does HE want to go to summer camp? The Scouting Journey isn't a trail to eagle or a list of requirements to check off. It is a journey for a boy to discover, grow and have fun. He should be the principal decision maker in this. While mom and dad can and should provide encouragement and advice, they should take pause if they begin to interfere by making the decisions for him.

[CalicoPenn]

 

Can you elaborate on why you would discourage the boys from taking certain MBs?  Is it because those you discourage are more of a "Classroom" type MB instead of utilizing the outdoors?  My train of thought for my son was that I spent $400 on Summer Camp and he needs 3 Eagle MB's and 1 Elective MB for Star and I want him to get these done.  I was going to have him do Camping, First Aid and Cooking.  It seems Cooking will not be a good choice because he won't be able to get all of the Pre-Reqs done.

 

That's precisley why I discourage scouts from taking merit badges like the Citizenships and Communications at summer camp - it's a waste of opportunity.  There are ample opportunities to earn those "classroom" type badges all year long.  I would include First Aid in with that.  I'd even suggest not doing Cooking or Camping at summer camp either - invariably, you end up with partials and your at home counselor is going to review everything you discussed with the 17 year old counselor for those badges anyway. 

 

On the other hand, there aren't as many opportunities to earn those badges utilizing the outdoors that are, or were, an intrinsic part of summer camp - merit badges like Rowing, Canoeing, Small Boat Sailing.  Merit badges like Rifle Shooting, Shotgun Shooting and Archery.  Merit badges like Pioneering and Orienteering.  Merit badges that are a perfect fit for a summer camp program like Basketry, Leatherwork, Pottery and Wood Carving.  The entire panopoly of nature oriented merit badges like Nature, Mammal Study, Forestry, Fish & Wildlife Management, Bird Study, Insect Study and Reptile & Amphibian Study.  There may be no better a place than Summer Camp to earn Astronomy, Fishing and Fly Fishing merit badges.  Some summer camps may even offer merit badges like Whitewater, Horsemanship or Climbing.  Wilderness Survival is a popular choice, and well suited to Summer Camp.  I'd even go so far as to suggest that the only Eagle-required merit badges that should be offered at Summer Camp are Swimming and Lifesaving.

 

I know you're concerned about the $400 summer camp going to waste by not being productive and seem to suggest the it will be productive if three Eagle-required badges are earned.  Let's turn that around a bit - why bother to spend $400 to earn three badges that can easily be earned year round for little to no cost?  Isn't that the bigger waste?  I'm a big proponent of letting summer camp be summer camp, not summer school.  I think it's a much bigger waste of $400 for summer camp not to take advantage of merit badges that are best earned at camp - ok, so they aren't Eagle required - they still fill out the electives - but more than that, they offer what's best about the Merit Badge program - an opportunity to explore, to try, to do new things. 

 

In fact, I can't see any reason why your son should wait until Summer Camp to earn any of those three required merit badges - it's only early April - surely he can be working with counselors on them and earn at least First Aid before Summer Camp even arrives.  I wonder how much he might surprise you if you were to take that list of summer camp merit badges, cross out all the "class room type" and Eagle Required (except for Swimming and Lifesaving) and see what he woud choose to do instead.

[Hedgehog]

It's always difficult with your own son.  Two good questions:  "What do you want to take at camp?"  [insert answer].  "How does that fit in with what you need for advancement?"  [insert answer].  

 

My son has set his own goals for advancement. He did First Class within 15 months and is almost at Star -- he just needs one more month as a Den Chief.  His goal is to be Life by next February and then take two years to work toward Eagle completing it in 10th grade.

 

He picked up Swimming his first year at camp.  Last summer he choose what he wanted - First Aid, Kayaking, Wood Carving and Archery.  He didn't get the scores he needed to get the Archery merit badge.  Outside of camp, he's completed Cooking and Family Life (after almost a year); he is almost done Camping (he has done all the "doing" requirements but his MBC for that one is a real pain about making sure he knows everything for the discussion requirements   ) and is working on Backpacking (still needs a 3 day trip and a 5 day trip) and Personal Fitness.  I asked him what he wanted to do this summer, his answer was Horsemanship, Sailing and Emergency Preparedness while completing Archery.  I asked about him doing Orienteering but he said he wanted that period to practice sailing.  If he wraps up all the ones he is working on, he has what he needs for Life and then some.  Who am I to argue?

 

I think the key is for the boys to enjoy the journey.  Let them pick what they want to do.  It does work out.

[pack54succasunna]

Yeah, it wasn't like I was telling him which MBs to take, more like "Suggesting" certain ones.

 

 

 

CalicoPenn,

 

Thanks for all of the info, took your advise. We rearranged everything and he picked Kayaking, Lifesaving, Rifle, Woodcarving, Leatherwork, and Astronomy. (now we have no pre-req to worry about)

 

And as far as getting some other MBs done before Summer Camp, I have a hard enough time getting him to do his homework.....

[Gone]

The reason I'm asking is because we're starting to help the kids with summer camp merit badge requirements.  So Camping MB has requirements to make a menu and cook, and it matches one of the requirements in Cookig MB.

 

So what I'm getting from you guys is that they should be done over each time.

Cooking for Cooking MB is a separate activity from cooking for Tenderfoot, Second Class or First Class or for Camping MB.

 

As Stosh said, unless BSA says they can be used for other requirements the rule should be they are separate events.

[Gone]

Our Scouts are very young at this point, there are only two (maybe 3) Scouts in High School.  So we are trying to provide extra quidance to our PL and SPLs.

 

I have three 6th graders recently elected as PLs. They are turning out to be better than the three high school kids that preceded them.

 

"Never do for a boy what he can do for himself." - LB-P