How To Handle Redundant Requirments

[pack54succasunna]

I'm sorry if this has been covered, but I couldn't readily find an answer.

 

How do we handle redundant requirements.  For exampe the First Class cooking requirements are the same as those in the Camping and Cooking MB.  Does the Scout need to repeat those three times?

 

I also need to find the answer in an official BSA book or document.  We have some old timers in the Troop (The ones that had their kids drop out 20 years ago) and they have there ways set.  If I need to challedge, I need an offical rule.

 

TIA, Chris

[Renax127]

Why wouldn't they do it again? If the scouts are involved in the program and actually camping then doing it again should just be a part of being a scout. My thoughts on it are that they should do it separately for each requirement.

 

That said there is not, that I have ever seen, a rule anywhere about it either way but there are people here with a better answer to that.

[Stosh]

I don't know if it's "official" or not, but unless it says one can use prior requirements to fulfill it a second time, I wouldn't do it.  The boys learned it well the first time, it'll be a piece of cake the second time.  I have had SM's cut the corners on the T-FCrequirements.  If the boys do the Cooking MB, First Aid MB, Pioneering MB, Orienteering MB , or Swimming MB, all the advancements for T-FC are covered.  Sorry, I make them do it twice.  

[pack54succasunna]

The reason I'm asking is because we're starting to help the kids with summer camp merit badge requirements.  So Camping MB has requirements to make a menu and cook, and it matches one of the requirements in Cookig MB.

 

So what I'm getting from you guys is that they should be done over each time.

[qwazse]

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-COOK.aspx

 

sez

 

Note: The meals prepared for Cooking merit badge requirements 5, 6, and 7 will count only toward fulfilling those requirements and will not count toward rank advancement. Meals prepared for rank advancement may not count toward the Cooking merit badge. You must not repeat any menus for meals actually prepared or cooked in requirements 5, 6, and 7.

 

The camping merit badge requirements have no such provision; however, the requirements are a little more nuanced ... asking for details that the 1st class requirements don't.

 

It is up to your patrol leaders to read the Tenderfoot through First Class requirements and determine what's fair there. I train my boys to only sign off on requirements they've seen the boy demonstrate proficiently. The "I did this for Camping in the scoutcraft area at summer camp" line does not count.

 

And it is up to the respective merit badge counselors to determine whats fair for the respective badges they counsel.

 

Different people, different sign-offs. But, if each is working responsibly in his/her own sphere, it should be clear that the boy had better get cooking!

[pack54succasunna]

Ah, perfect.  I missed that.  Thanks qwazse

[blw2]

.....The boys learned it well the first time, it'll be a piece of cake the second time.  .....

 

I'm reminded of a recent thread where it was mentioned that learning or perfecting the skill isn't the goal....

So that being true, the scout may very well not have learned it well the 1st time....

so

seems to me it wouldn't hurt to repeat a task for the sake of learning that task.  Beneficial even.

and if the goal is something else.... the journey of character building, or some such thing.... then what would it hurt to make that journey again in a different situation or from a different perspective? Beneficial again....

but

if faced with a situation where say he was working on both requirements the same day and the requirement was to say make a Bologna sandwich.  It would be.... well, silly.... to make second bologna sandwich 30 seconds later with the same already opened packages of meat and bread, just for the sake of "letter of the law".

Just my opinion.... but I'm a cub scouter so what do I know...

[perdidochas]

I'm sorry if this has been covered, but I couldn't readily find an answer.

 

How do we handle redundant requirements.  For exampe the First Class cooking requirements are the same as those in the Camping and Cooking MB.  Does the Scout need to repeat those three times?

 

I also need to find the answer in an official BSA book or document.  We have some old timers in the Troop (The ones that had their kids drop out 20 years ago) and they have there ways set.  If I need to challedge, I need an offical rule.

 

TIA, Chris

The Cooking merit badge specifically says that you can't use requirements for T-2-1

 

 

Note: The meals prepared for Cooking merit badge requirements 5, 6, and 7 will count only toward fulfilling those requirements and will not count toward rank advancement. Meals prepared for rank advancement may not count toward the Cooking merit badge. You must not repeat any menus for meals actually prepared or cooked in requirements 5, 6, and 7.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-COOK.aspx

[perdidochas]

The reason I'm asking is because we're starting to help the kids with summer camp merit badge requirements.  So Camping MB has requirements to make a menu and cook, and it matches one of the requirements in Cookig MB.

 

So what I'm getting from you guys is that they should be done over each time.

 

For cooking, it is a requirement that they be done again.  It is spelled out in the Cooking Merit Badge requirements.

 

IMHO, it only helps the Scout to do these requirements over and over again.  Now, I do think that the camping nights for camping merit badge should also count toward T-2-1 Advancement.

Edited April 10, 2015 by perdidochas

[jr56]

True, most merit badges will let you know if requirements need to be repeated or not.  If there is any doubt, it is up to the discretion of the Merit Badge counselor.

[pack54succasunna]

IMHO, it only helps the Scout to do these requirements over and over again.  Now, I do think that the camping nights for camping merit badge should also count toward T-2-1 Advancement.

 

Well this is in the camping requirments: "*All campouts since becoming a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout may count toward this requirement"

[Stosh]

I like to take the approach that the two are mutually exclusive.

 

Kinda like: 

 

You don't need the Bugler POR to take the Bugling MB and vice versa.

[CalicoPenn]

The question is answered, kind of, in Section 4.2.3.6 of the Guide to Advancement, by which I mean it doesn't really answer the question definitively but rather gives examples then leaves most of it to the judgment of the leaders, scouts and merit badge counselors.  (I could have sworn one of the reasons for putting together that "new" advancement guide that is numbered like some kind of ISO Quality document or Military Standards manual was to make things clearer).

 

It covers pretty much what folks have already shared here.  It only prohibits doubling up if a requirement specifically prohibits it -thus you can't use the cooking merit badge work for rank advancement or the rank advancement work for cooking merit badge.  You can apparently use the rank advancement work for camping merit badge and vice-versa, but you also can't use the camping merit badge work for cooking merit badge. 

 

It suggests that a service project "could" be counted by a Scout for two different awards, but provides that it might not be a good idea - without outright prohibiting the practice.

 

It suggests that you can piggy back similar parts of requirements so long as the non-similar parts of the requirement are met - such as the Citizenship and Communications merit badge requirements to visit a public meeting - each merit badge have different tasks related to the visit so as long as those different tasks are completed, it could be done with just one visit to a public meeting.

 

Beyond any specific prohibitions written in the requirements, it's really left to people's discretion.  It would be up to the MBC to allow cooking work for rank to complete the same/similar requirements in Camping Merit Badge (and for the SM/PLC/CO to allow Camping merit badge work to complete the rank requirements).  If I were the Camping Merit Badge counselor, my answer would be that the Scout would have to complete it again.  Negative feedback from the parents, Scout, SM/ASM's, Committee would be met with "He can always choose a different counselor).

 

Service projects?  My answer would be "no, it counts for one only - that is Troop policy" - and if there was any pushback, the answer would either be "I'll be glad to help find a Troop more suitable to people wanting shortcuts" or "Congratulations, Mr. CC, you're the new SM" depending on the support from the committee I received.

 

Now - my question to you is:

 

Why are you starting to help Scouts with their summer camp merit badge requirements?  What exactly are you doing?  About the only thing that you folks should be doing is providing a list of merit badges offered at camp, strongly suggesting that certain merit badges not be pursued at camp that can easily be done back home (and I'm of a mind to not disagree with units stating outright that certain merit badges, like any of the citizenship badges, or any other non-outdoor badges, including first aid, will not be allowed to be earned at Summer Camp.  I'm also of a mind to not disagree with any unit that says their Scouts can not attend any T to FC classes at summer camp.  Once the lad chooses the merit badges they might want to take, the only other thing as an adult I would do is point them in the direction of the merit badge books, answer any question about pre-reqs and requirements that I can,  and suggest to any Scout that chooses one of the shooting sports badges to start saving up some money now because those badges can cost a bit of coinage to complete.   

[fred johnson]

There is "should" and "a good idea" and "what's required".   Repeating is useful to refresh and entrench knowledge.  

 

BUT unless BSA say's you can't as found about cooking above, then don't read more into the requirements than are there.  Setup a rich and rewarding program so they can keep growing in knowledge and skill.  But advancement is what it is.  Support the scout.

[Stosh]

I stay out of the MB selection process for the boys as well.

 

Last year I had four of my Scout ranked (pre-Tenderfoot) sign up for Wilderness Survival along with Archery and Swimming and First Aid.  Much to my surprise all four of them got at least 2 of them complete and two of them completed all four.  All this in spite of the fact that they were strongly suggested not to do it that they should focus on the T-FC instead.  Well, that was the 5th session so they took that too.  

 

I guess It pays to just sit back and watch because sometimes the adult wisdom thingy doesn't work too well and the boys end up kinda surprising ya.

 

This year will be there second year, but the new Webelos boy has signed up for Swimming, First Aid, Cooking, Archery and Wilderness Survival.  Really?

 

The sad part of it all is that they are having so much fun that none of them have gotten TF yet.  They work on the advancements, but the PL has some pretty high standards the boys have to meet.  He insists that the boys be proficient in the skill before he signs off on it.