Blanket Permission Slips?

[Stosh]

 

While I do agree that the permission slips don't mean much, I can just imagine what a lawyer would do in the case of an absence of one. The permission slip doesn't protect you from the suit, but not having one will be just that much worse.

 

General consent is issued for all scout activities signed by the parents when the fill out the application. It covers all scouting approved activities. If one is canoeing and the leadership has not taken Safety Afloat, then it is not an approved activity regardless of what the parents sign later on. If one has their non-swimmer son out in a canoe and proper protocol is not followed, then negligence comes into play regardless of whether or not the parents gave permission. Someone opens up the rifle range? Is the range director BSA approved? If not, negligence comes into play. Climbing rocks? BSA approved personnel on site leading the activity? If not...

 

As one can see, permission is issued with the application form for any and all scouting activities. There is no permission slip or legal waiver that is going to hold up in court when it comes to negligence.

 

So, Mr. Smith, you took little Johnny on a scout campout activity. His parents dropped him off and you went out in the woods for the whole weekend and nothing happened and little Johnny had a great time. But it has come to the awareness of the court that you did so without written parental permission, other than what was already done when they filled out their son's application to be involved in scouting activities. Is that correct, Mr. Smith, remember you are under oath......

 

Yeah, right.

 

After 45 years of working with youth, never had that one come up...

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

Since climbing or shooting sports are not on your tour plan, you cannot. Remember this all links back to other documents. You can't go canoeing simply because the canoes are open. Have you done your swim tests? Have you done your water sports training? Are guys grouped by known swimming ability?

 

Our unit sticks to our tour plan and itinerary. IF something "neutral" like going to a wild life refuge or taking a nature hike presents itself then great. If something like go-karts or shooting or climbing or water sports presents itself we have to ask: 1) Does our tour permit cover it? 2) Do we have the appropriate people trained to manage this new activity? 3) Are the boys trained/prepared according to BSA guidelines? 4) Will we run afoul of our tour plan, permission slip or any other BSA policy.

 

 

(Sigh)

 

Since we are camping on camp property, we didn't file a tour plan. In the case of shooting sports, I specified the shooting sports director opened the range for us. In our council, only certified climbing instructors can open the climbing wall, so one can assume the other troop has a climbing instructor on hand, but we asked to be sure. And oh, by the way, we have both certified climbing and shooting sports instructors in our troop, so that's not a problem either way. We also have numerous folks trained in Safety Afloat and have sense enough not to jump in canoes willy-nilly without taking the proper precautions. So the only reason we cannot participate in these activities is because of the permission slips?

 

But our permission slips only specified "camping." It made no mention of building fires, using axes, propane stoves, playing Frisbee tag in the field or backpacking the half-mile in from the parking lot. Are we precluded from those activities too? Are we limited to lying in tents starring up at the canvas?

 

Can you provide a reference for this list of "neutral" activities?

[Stosh]

I have been camping for 60+ years now and I have never heard of anyone defining camping as just tenting. With the danger associated with it I can see where rock climbing, water craft and shooting sports can be a bit far afield from pure camping. But hiking, fire building, cooking, digging latrine, etc. all are necessary for an extended stay in the campsite. Hiking, biking, fishing, swimming and other activities related to outside the boundaries of the campsite can also be defined under the definition of camping. And if one doesn't think that "running around in the woods" isn't dangerous, they haven't had an encounter with Mr. Poison Ivy.

 

Sometimes one has to conclude that strict interpretation of legalses is pretty much a bummer when it comes to taking young boys out into the woods for some fun.

 

I think I would be a bit more concerned about it if the boys weren't properly trained and had some instruction in first aid. As long as one stays within the limits of the boys' training, I can then relax.

 

Stosh

[Gone]

Since we are camping on camp property, we didn't file a tour plan. In the case of shooting sports, I specified the shooting sports director opened the range for us. In our council, only certified climbing instructors can open the climbing wall, so one can assume the other troop has a climbing instructor on hand, but we asked to be sure. And oh, by the way, we have both certified climbing and shooting sports instructors in our troop, so that's not a problem either way. We also have numerous folks trained in Safety Afloat and have sense enough not to jump in canoes willy-nilly without taking the proper precautions. So the only reason we cannot participate in these activities is because of the permission slips?[/Quote]

Technically, according to one of my council reps, if your tour plan did not cover the activity (e.g., shooting sports, climbing, etc.) then you should not do the activity. You can amend you tour plan, of course, but according to my council the tour plan must match the activity.

 

As for permission slip, personally I would want the permission slip to cover ANY high risk activity we do. I would not want to call an audible and go shotgun shooting if Tommy's mom doesn't want him going near guns.

 

But our permission slips only specified "camping." It made no mention of building fires, using axes, propane stoves, playing Frisbee tag in the field or backpacking the half-mile in from the parking lot. Are we precluded from those activities too? Are we limited to lying in tents starring up at the canvas?

This being purposely obtuse. I was obviously calling out the same activities that the online tour plan asks us as leaders to call out. For the record, no BSA obviously does not ask us to spell out camping, axe use, fires, etc. It DOES ask us to note any shooting sports, water sports, flying, back country and other things. That was my point. I then married that point to what my council has required of our units with regard to the tour plan.

 

Let's not be argumentative for the sake of doing so.

[Twocubdad]

I'd call it sarcastic, but I'm okay with "purposely obtuse" too.

 

[Gone]

I'd call it sarcastic, but I'm okay with "purposely obtuse" too.

Agreed. My point was that where BSA makes distinctions (e.g., in the tour plan) so should the units.

 

I take it your council does not require your activities to match your tour plan?

[qwazse]

... playing Frisbee tag in the field ...

 

Axes, saws, fires, toxic plants ... no problem. Firearms, rappels, swims, rocks-and-bogs ... a little management and all is well. But what is it with disks and balls? Within an hour of appearing some boy is coming up to us with some bone broken!

 

I think the there should be a signed statement of responsibility if a parent lets a kid add a football or flying disk to his pack.

[SeattlePioneer]

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Thirty years ago the Troop Committee I was part of got the same advice from a lawyer who was on the committee.

 

The lawyer then drew up a CONTRACT in which the troop agreed to take the youth on a specific outing IN EXCHANGE FOR the parents, child and family waiving liability should an injury or death occur. The family was notified that the outing might result in death or serious injury by drowning, falls, and a list of other hazards.

 

So that wasn't just a permission slip. Presumably that offered a lot more protection than a simple permission slip.

 

How valid that approach might be today, I don;t know.

[Twocubdad]

I take it your council does not require your activities to match your tour plan?

 

No permit required at all if we are within the council or going to a council camp.

[TAHAWK]

If the kid gets hurt, his representatives may sue, and any release not approved by the court with jurisdiction over juvenile matters is usually worthless. (In Ohio, that is the Probate Division of the Court of Common Pleas. In other states, it's the Family Court.) A release is a contract. In most states, parents cannot contract for their children without court approval and children are legally incompetent to contract.

 

A permission slip does create a defense to a charge of kidnapping and, thus, should be specific to each outing. And yes, we had a fine single parent claim a Scoutmaster had kidnapped their son. (Kid said she knew and had packed his lunch. Learned judge decided she was "nuts" and dismissed charges with prosecutor's concurrence.)

 

A medical care release will usually be honored by a health care provider, who may refuse treatment in its absence. (Ask me why I am real careful about that. Blood dripping on hospital lobby floor and all that.)

[T2Eagle]

 

No permit required at all if we are within the council or going to a council camp.

 

 

Same with us, if we're not traveling outside of the Council we do not have to fill out plans.

[Gone]

No permit required at all if we are within the council or going to a council camp.

Hmmmm, the BSA website (second FAQ questions) would seem to contradict this *IF* you are partaking in the type of high risk activities were were discussing. My council is pretty anal-retentive and follow this directive by the book. If you are going to council camp (or not) and partaking in any of those activities you must complete a tour plan.

 

In reading the language it did not sound optional. Given that it doesn't take long to complete the plan, our unit does it anyway AND completes a corresponding permission slip. Based on feedback from national (sent in a question when I posted this thread) the recommended using their permission slip as well.

[Eagle94-A1]

Unfortunately BSA often has contradictory language in its various documents.

[RichardB]

When does a unit have to complete a tour and activity plan - it can be added to by local councils and by design includes high risk activities.....(not sure how this could be more simple)

Q. When do I need to complete a tour and activity plan?

A. Times when a tour and activity plan must be submitted for council review include the following:

• Trips of 500 miles or more; or
  
• Trips outside of council borders (exception: not to your council-owned property); or
  
• Trips to Florida Sea Base, Northern Tier, Philmont Scout Ranch, Summit Bechtel Reserve (you will be asked to present a copy of your tour and activity plan upon arrival),national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or a regionally sponsored event; or
  
• When conducting any of the following activities outside of council or district events:
  
  • Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)
    
  • Climbing and rappelling
    
  • Orientation flights (process flying plan)
    
  • Shooting sports
    
  • Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.); or
    
  • At a council's request (Contact your local council for additional guidelines or regulations concerning tour and activity plans; many have set guidelines for events or activities within council boundaries such as for Cub Scout overnight camping.)
    

[Gone]

When does a unit have to complete a tour and activity plan - it can be added to by local councils and by design includes high risk activities.....(not sure how this could be more simple)

Q. When do I need to complete a tour and activity plan?

A. Times when a tour and activity plan must be submitted for council review include the following:

• Trips of 500 miles or more; or
  
• Trips outside of council borders (exception: not to your council-owned property); or
  
• Trips to Florida Sea Base, Northern Tier, Philmont Scout Ranch, Summit Bechtel Reserve (you will be asked to present a copy of your tour and activity plan upon arrival),national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or a regionally sponsored event; or
  
• When conducting any of the following activities outside of council or district events:
  
  • Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)
    
  • Climbing and rappelling
    
  • Orientation flights (process flying plan)
    
  • Shooting sports
    
  • Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.); or
    
  • At a council's request (Contact your local council for additional guidelines or regulations concerning tour and activity plans; many have set guidelines for events or activities within council boundaries such as for Cub Scout overnight camping.)
    

 

You missed highlighting the clearest statement made in the FAQ:

 

"Times when a tour and activity plan must be submitted for council review include the following:

 

When conducting any of the following activities outside of council or district events:

 

Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)

Climbing and rappelling

Orientation flights (process flying plan)

Shooting sports"

 

That's pretty clear BSA expects you to fill out the tour plan when you are doing any of these activities even if it is at a Council camp UNLESS it is part of a council/district event.

 

So pursuant to our conversation, BSA seems to expect this to be filled out. I don't see any contradiction there....it's pretty plain language.