Questions re organizing a den-only family campout

[Hueymungus]

If the Tiger Den goes camping, it's not BSA approved as you have already found out. It is a bunch of families getting together to go camping. Nothing during this time will count towards any requirements within the Cubscout program. If you have such a hard time with the Council Summercamp programs, I would highly suggest talking to the Cubscout Camping Professional and see how they can help you and listen to your issues.

 

I suspect that when the Wolf Summer Camp comes around you will again have the same issue as the Tiger year. Then again for Bear, Webelos and into Boy Scouts.....

[Fehler]

Do it as a Pack Campout, and require parents for the older boys, too. BALOO is more of a certification, not a training. As a newbie outdoors person, I found some things in it interesting. Take it, it doesn't expire.

[AKdenldr]

Congratulations for stepping up and really taking the "shared leadership" concept of tigers to heart.

 

I disagree with some advice above, your tigers can earn and achieve at family, scouting, and community events that do not have a "bsa permit".

 

I suggest you tiger families invite the Pack BALOO trained adult to join you on your campout (they can bring their scout son -- he could help). They can take care of the permit for you and that will make it an official Pack campout. If that person isn't available to come do the event a bsa day in the park -- followed by family camping, followed by bsa day in the park. This is what our dens and pack did.

 

(And there is nothing like a small camping trip to bond a group of families.)

 

I do recommend Baloo training (and I have camped all my life) for the training on how to setup the programming for the scouts. A schedule of events is a great help. Some suggestions on how to handle young kids and fire and other safety items were very helpful. Working with a crowd is different than taking your family camping. I assume you all are in this for the long haul, so any training you get now will help for the next 5 or 11 years.

 

I would cleanly set the expectation of no alcohol, or firearms on this campout. You also will need to set the expectation about family pets.

 

Have great fun on your campout. Provide activities for the sisters and younger siblings...... Let us know how it goes.

[RichardB]

To the original post, the Cub Scout Camping program does not involve den camping by Tigers, Wolves or Bears. Those dens would be able to camp either at council organized family camps or as part of a Pack Overnighter. Even then, the Pack Overnighter is only conducted at council approved locations by design. Others have pointed you to the Guide to Safe Scouting, if you review that link you will also find links to the Tour and Activity Plan, while it may not be mandated, it is certainly a good idea to review the material like the Guide to Safe Scouting, Age Appropriate Activities, and Sweet 16 of BSA safety as a starter along with those online E-Learning courses available to you at myscouting.org. (Youth Protection, Weather Hazards, Safe Swim Defense, etc.).

 

I would suggest you may wish to discuss this further at Cub Scout Roundtables, with your unit commissioners and others who may have some great tips and can guide you to what the Cub Scout program is and is not. And of course, you need to discuss this with your unit leadership and chartered organization. If they are fine with taking on the responsibility for programs outside of scouting, nothing to stop that, it just isn't an official scouting activity.

 

Another way to look at breaking your assumption in the Original Post is this.....as there is no program involving tiger den camping, there is no guidance, or training or support for it......

[Lenae]

Sort of unrelated, but not entirely unrelated, any chance this "no den camping before Webelos" rule will be changed or abolished under the new program? I've been reading as much as I can find about the changes coming, and haven't come across anything mentioning den camping that I recall, so I suppose that's wishful thinking, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. (How's that for a run-on sentence?)

[qwazse]

... any chance this "no den camping before Webelos" rule will be changed or abolished under the new program? ...

 

I don't see that happening in concert with program changes. It really would have to do with cultural changes nation-wide. That is, if large numbers of parents are taught the "ins" and "outs" of camping with young children, then the burden of training families on how to camp together would not fall on an organization who is hard pressed to even get its registered direct-contact adults to take the most basic of training.

 

What could prepare families for such a thing? Well a generation of millions of young men and women who have spent seven years hiking and camping together could do the trick. A thousand den moms who in their youth earned Ranger or Hornaday awards would probably have a lot of leverage with the folks in Irving.

 

 

It's hard to understand why this would be needed when your den is particularly chock-full of folks who do outdoor vacations with their families on a regular basis, but most dens aren't so lucky.  And really, they shouldn't be attracting those "all about the woods" types. They should be attracting as many parents who would rather not camp but would love to see littly Johnny be well-rounded and pick up a couple of skills that he isn't getting at home or school .

[Servant40]

This showed up in a google search and wanted to make a comment even though it's an old post.  We do pack overnighters a few times a year, never den only.  We are checking with our council to see if we can do a tiger camp out this weekend because a council organized tiger only overnight event was cancelled at the last minute.  At the parent meeting we emphasized a tiger event with focus on that age group.  There are upcoming pack and council wide camping events which fill most upcoming weekends.  The tiger prowl has always been a popular event that made new scouts feel special and initiated into the program.

 

Would not consider it except it is same time as the original event, at a campsite that has been council approved (next door to a fire rescue station), will have at least two BALOO trained adults, and several tiger families want to go because they cleared their schedule.  Would not prohibit other dens from coming, but no time to plan with them.  The den discussed it among themselves and jumped at the idea when it was suggested by someone in the den.  We will not do it without council saying there is an approved way.

 

Any thoughts on this type of situation, especially for the rule experts and sticklers?

[Ranman328]

I would recommend following the Guide to Safe Scouting. I understand it might not be popular but the BSA puts out rules and guidelines for a reason. I myself found out how parents can turn on you in a second. I had a Tiger Leader we had to let go due to constant liability issues. I love camping and taking the scouts out in the wild. I feel it is a responsibility of us leaders. It is also our responsibility as leaders to protect the scouts, families, Pack and Charter Organization from liability. Scouting deals with many hazardous situations like fire, knives, tools, bad weather and so forth. Bad things can happen in a second. God forbid something did happen and someone got hurt and a family wants to sue. The BSA is full of lawyers and will ask where your paperwork is and if there isn't any, guess what, they will not cover you. I have personally been involved in those situations where you wouldn't think a parent would do something like that only for them to go on the attack. You have to understand that not only is the Pack and Charter organization at risk, but every leader and parent there. I hate to sound so gloom and doom but we live in a world where people like to sue. Good Luck.

[qwazse]

I would get that council approval in writing. File a tour plan.

It's a durn shame you have to be that paranoid, but these are new parents and you want to be sure you're doing everything possible to make sure your scouts are well taken care of.

[RichardB]

I would get that council approval in writing. File a tour plan.

It's a durn shame you have to be that paranoid, but these are new parents and you want to be sure you're doing everything possible to make sure your scouts are well taken care of.

 

Qwazse trying to use a apple when the recipie calls for an orange.    http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/HealthandSafety/TourPlanFAQ.aspx 

 

A checklist for Chartered Organization / Leadership that is planning a scouting event - kind of hard to certify when you know the activity is outside of scouting right?  There is not a council approval, it is the unit leadership that certifies the plan is complete.   So doing one when you no it's not an official scouting activity or the program of the BSA (Tiger den camping for this strings midlife renewal) doesn't make a lot of sense.  

 

My $0.02

[qwazse]

I did not intend to conflate tour plan with council approval.

 

Tour plan is a tool to help preparation. It necessarily involves the unit key three.

 

"Regardless, the tour and activity plan is an excellent tool that should be included in preparation for all activities, even those not requiring it. It guides a tour leader through itineraries, travel arrangements, two-deep leadership, supervision qualifications, and transportation."

 

The question becomes: is this a pack campout if it is billed as such but only tigers show up?

[meyerc13]

Would not consider it except it is same time as the original event, at a campsite that has been council approved (next door to a fire rescue station), will have at least two BALOO trained adults, and several tiger families want to go because they cleared their schedule.  Would not prohibit other dens from coming, but no time to plan with them.  The den discussed it among themselves and jumped at the idea when it was suggested by someone in the den.  We will not do it without council saying there is an approved way.

 

Any thoughts on this type of situation, especially for the rule experts and sticklers?

 

Let's look at what the BSA says about Pack Overnighters:

 

Pack overnighters are pack-organized overnight camping activities involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (use Pack OvernighterSite Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the program must be structured to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and YouthProtection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

At least one adult giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO), No. 34162, and be present on campouts. BALOO trains participants to properly understand the importance of program intent, Youth Protection guidelines, health and safety,site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally, according to council policies. Packs use the tour plan Application, No. 34426.

 

The BSA also allows for Webelos Den Overnight Camping.  The difference between these is that Webelos Den Overnight camping does not require a BALOO trained leader, and parents aren't necessarily along (although Youth Protection Guidelines always apply, so two deep leadership, no one-on-one contact, appropriate sleeping facilities, etc. still apply).  The BSA also makes a point that den camping is not allowed for any den except Webelos.

 

So let's look at your example.  Families are attending, at an approved facility, with age appropriate activities, and BALOO trained leaders.  Call it what you want, but it meets the requirement for a Pack Overnighter.  If you call it that, and run it as one, there is nothing in the requirements for a Pack Overnighter that Scouts from multiple dens must attend.  My old Pack had a fall camporee last year in which the vast majority of the kids were Tigers.  If no Webelos and Wolves had been able to attend (no Bears attended, and the Wolves and Webelos were mostly the kids of the BALOO trained leaders like me), should we have cancelled?  No, of course not, as long as all of the requirements for a Pack Overnighter were met.  You have met those requirements, so it can be a Pack Overnighter.  Out of goodwill, I'd invite families from other dens to make it an official Pack Overnighter, but if nobody signs up there is no reason to cancel your Pack Overnighter as long as you have at least one BALOO trained leader onsite and all of the other Pack Overnighter requirements are being met.

[Fehler]

For Webelos Den Camping, isn't there a requirement for an IOLS/OWLS trained leader?  Seems odd that specific type of camping has no training requirement.

[meyerc13]

For Webelos Den Camping, isn't there a requirement for an IOLS/OWLS trained leader?  Seems odd that specific type of camping has no training requirement.

 

It is suggested, but not required.  As a Cubmaster or Pack Committee Chair, personally I would require it of my Webelos Den Leaders, especially if they weren't Boy Scouts themsleves.  I say this because I attended what our Council calls Webelos Rendezvous, which is basically a camporee for Webelos I boys (as they finish Webelos I and are almost Webelos II).  During that campout, I saw a Webelos using a hatchet, quite unsafely at that.  Had they gone through IOLS/OWLS they would know that this is not part of the Cub Scout program.  Pocketknives yes, but Axe and Hatchet should wait for Boy Scouting.  I've observed Webelos leaders using other non-Scout methods to teach their boys, rather than using the 'Scout' way (don't get me going on starting a fire).

 

Some Districts and Councils may have their own policy, but at a national level it isn't a requirement, just a strong suggestion (based on all of the information I've reviewed, which is quite a bit).

[bbender]

"any chance this "no den camping before Webelos" rule will be changed or abolished under the new program?" === > Well, I can confirm that specific proposals were made at least two times, once when the new Cub Scout Advancement program ("now with more camping!") was being put together, and once in the spring of 2015 as the new program was about to come online.  There may have been more.

 

The proposal I saw (which I'm happy to share) basically tracked the existing Pack Overnighter exactly ("Pack Overnighter" to "Pack or Den Overnighter"), with exactly the same requirements (like BALOO).   

 

From the 2015 proposal (which received positive reviews from a then advisor to the Cub Scout program but was then turned down by Health and Safety):

 

Some Reasons For Allowing Den Camping: 

·        If the same safety rules apply (training, plan, site selection, leadership, etc.), then safety is covered, consistent with BSA requirements.

·        A den campout would arguably be safer, since the ratio of BALOO trained leaders to scouts and families would be stronger than in some pack campouts. 

·        Some packs are the size of a single den, or may be comprised of a single den, and their camping experience under the same safety rules as pack overnighters is fine.

·        Some packs are enormous, and the logistics of pack camping make the experience less appealing to families and scouts, or less available because of the work involved for the numbers attending.

·        Den camping under the same safety rules as pack overnighters can occur in more locations than are available to large packs. 

·        This will increase the number of BALOO trained leaders available to support pack camping.

·        Currently, Cub Scouts may participate in family camping that involves Cub Scouting program elements, but only if they don’t camp with another family.  Limiting the den experience in that way seems to conflict with the importance of the den as a method of Cub Scouting.

·        This will bring “into the fold†dens whose families “go camping as a group (but not as Cub Scouts)â€.

·        For those leaders who don’t go “go camping as a group (but not as Cub Scouts)†because they don’t want to be seen as a Cub Scout leader at an unsanctioned event, this would bring him or her “into the fold†and allow camping under the same safety rules as pack overnighters.

·        Would increase overall camping by Cub Scouts, under the same safety rules as pack overnighters.