CNYScouter Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 2 part question A little background first The SM and a long time ASM of my son’s troop, met in Tigers and both their son’s made Eagle and aged out in 2014. The ASM was the Troops Quartermaster and has pretty much stopped doing anything since last spring. The SM has been involved with the Troop since 2001 (with an older son) and has been the SM for the last 6 or 7 years. Even though the SM makes Troop and PLC meetings he just went on his first campout with the Troop last weekend. He has spent more time with his son and Daughter’s Venturing Crew than the Troop this year. So basically these two have checked out but not stepped down. There is another ASM who has decided that after 3 years of sitting back and just being a body on a campout once in a while he going to step up and fix things. The only Scouting background he has is the 3 years he has been in the Troop. He has taken SM training After a few conversations about the future of the Troop I’ve gotten this from him. During our discussions I said that for a Troop to be successful using the Patrol Method, the adults need to all be committed. He said he would not be committed to using anything. He doesn’t think we should be using the 8 Methods all the time. We can toss them depending on the situation. He is always suggesting that we combine/split up patrols on campouts. He has stated that are others ways to do things besides the boy scout program and we should use them The Boy Scout program was developed by BP over 100 years ago and it is old and outdated. We need to use new ideas. The SM has it clear that we use the Boy Scout Program and the Patrol method. When I reminded him as ASM’s we are here to help the SM fulfill his vision of the program his response was “he will do no such thing. Everything he does is for in best interest of the boys†He has also decided to take over as the Troop Quartermaster. On the Committee side the Fundraising is pretty disorganized and he is going to get involved and fix that too. He now going to be at all campouts and so he can make sure we are doing what’s best for the boys The SM had to go out of town for work and asked him to be the second adult at last month’s PLC meetings. He is now planning on attending them all and went ahead and invited all the other ASM’s to be there also. He also basically told one of our committee people they could be an ASM. I don’t know why our SM doesn’t want the person as an ASM but that’s the SM’s call, He asked how the committee meeting ran. He doesn’t think that is being run correctly so he will be attending all of them to see if he can slowly fix them too. …and he plays in a band and is going to concentrate on getting his band playing out more this spring I have to say my son’s SM has done a pretty good job with the Troop. In the two years since my son and I have joined he has have really tried to be a boy-led unit and use the patrol method. I think these are the reason the Troop has more than doubled in size and we have done a pretty good job with retaining the scouts we have. Personally I think this guy is full of it – all talk and no action. He has done very little as quartermaster. He didn’t go on the campout this weekend. Half the propane tanks were empty and he never put together a 5th patrol box. I just found out that someone else is helping with the next fundraiser – he couldn’t make it From my discussions with him he doesn’t really have an understanding of the different methods of Scouting and he has little or no practical experience – but he’s an expert at all of it My concern is that he now has the other new adults convinced that the boy-led and patrol method are not the way to go and to move away from using them. What do you do with an ASM like this in this situation? Part Two The SM has said that he will be stepping down in the near future. It could be as soon as this Fall but it could go on like this for another year. I see this ASM as being a real problem to deal with for the next SM for the Troop. (he has said he doesn't want it) If you got asked to be the SM how would you deal with this person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Ever watch a train wreck in slow motion? If not, here's your opportunity. To give you the down and dirty quick answer, here's what I would do. Get the adults all in the same room along with the COR and UC and spell out exactly what you have said in this post. After all they are your concerns. If you are not willing to step up and take SM, then one would have to assume this other guy is in by default. Explain the BSA program Patrol-Method, boy-led etc. and what you envision for the troop and that you are available to take over as SM. The other gentleman can plead his case as well. It's up to the COR to decide what's best for his organization. If the COR goes with you, the troop's got a chance to get a big push in the right direction. If the COR goes with the other guy, it's up to your son, but a fatherly push to a real scout troop would be in order. If your son wishes to stay with his buddies, you can always drop back to be an occasional fill-in parent/chaperone when needed by your son. As your son gets older he will be loosening his bond with dear old dad and start hanging with peers so your having to subject yourself to this adult-led, troop method SM will decrease over time. Best of luck, but this kind of crap goes on all the time. You are not being exposed to anything out of the ordinary. I had a similar situation where I stepped forward to offer my services as a SM to a floundering troop. Being boy-led, patrol method didn't fit their idea of a scout troop either and within 6 months, they folded the troop. Don't take it personally, just work with your son to support his decisions on what he thinks is best for him, and you do what's best for you., too. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle94-A1 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 CNY, I have to ditto what Stosh said. I can speak with first hand expereince that if the guy takes over, it will be a train wreck. The troop will lose boys, and wither and die. I found out SM of the troop with my pack's CO was stepping down when he asked me to be SM. I had Wolf and two wannabe Cubs and declined. While I do have some regrets, and yes I do get angry with myself at times for not doing becoming SM, I know it was best for me and my family. The new SM is exactly like the ASM you have described. They have lost Scouts to other troops or dropping altogether. They did not recruit any new Scouts this year. All went to other troops. And of the 5 new scouts from last year, only 1 remains. Here is the real aggrevating part, no matter what you or others say, you will be ignored. We had former leaders and other folks trying to mentor him and help him have a good program. We were ignored, told we don't know what we are talking about, and told that Scouting needs to change with the times and the "old stuff" doesn't work today. In my opinion, the troop will fold. They applied for Sea Base next year, and have a spot. So they may be around for longer than I anticipated. But within 5 years, and I'm thinking 3 since they are not recruiting, they will fold. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel947 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 CNY what is your role? Unfortunately I'm going to echo the others. The only way to avoid having this guy become SM is to find a qualified candidate who will run the program properly, and get the CC to nominate him and the current SM to train him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutergipper Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The ASM was the Troops Quartermaster.... I think you may have less of a Patrol Method Troop than you think. A Scout, not an ASM, is the Troop Quartermaster. Nevertheless, I agree with both posts above. The Troop's in trouble. Your choice is between doing what's necessary to save it, leaving, or just staying and letting your son get whatever he can from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Rare consensus within the group. My advice to you: always sit near a door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNYScouter Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 I spent well over 10 years looking for a Troop with my older son that uses the patrol method and never really found one. As a DC I was surprised how few Troops around here really use the patrol method or adults who understand how it works My son's current Troop is far and away the closest I have seen using the patrol method I have run into When I say Troop Quartermaster, he was the adult who worked with the youth Quartermaster. He is also the person who maintained the troop trailer and took it for the yearly inspection. He was also the person who refilled the propane tanks and purchased charcoal. He also made the purchases of new equipment. Up until 3 weeks ago the Troop did not have a youth Quartermaster. No Scout wanted the position. There was a youth quartermaster when we first joined 2 years ago but he became SPL that June and we haven’t had one since. I think we have 5 or 6 Life Scouts with no POR because they are unwilling to take on any type of real responsibility in the troop. My son's SM is perfectly OK with them not advancing if they aren’t willing to put any effort in. One of the boys who crossed over with my son finally made 1st class and said he would take the position of Quartermaster. This was 3 weeks ago and he hasn’t been to a Troop meeting or activity since. So some ones got to do it I am currently an ASM in the Troop and I am pretty sure I am on the short list to be considered for the next SM I don’t think this guy will ever be asked to be the SM. For one he has said he doesn’t want the position. The current SM knows some of what’s going on with him and would never give this guy his recommendation To be honest I don’t think I want the position if this is going to be one of the ASM’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 As a SM of a troop that really strives for patrol-method, boy-led, I have to think two or three times before I put my foot down on the boys. The adults, however, I call foul without having to think but once. For me, the SM is the #1 and only support-advocate for the boys. It is my job to maintain a constant level of opportunity and if I see or even suspect adults doing anything the boys should be doing, I'm right there correcting things. It even works with parents.... I have mastered, "The Look". Currently my ASM is also the District Commissioner who wants to see how this patrol-method, boy-led thingy really works. She has hung around for almost a year now so she must be please with what she sees. Don't try and over think this whole thing. Surprisingly with the patrol-method, boy-led I have never had to have more than one ASM. Basically the two of us are there because BSA requires 2-deep leadership. The boys do just fine by themselves. Just remember they are assistants to the SM. They serve at his/her pleasure. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel947 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 CNY, This sounds brutal, but here it is. If you were Scoutmaster, there is no rule saying you have to keep this troublemaking ASM. You have the right as the ASM to form your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveTX Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Engage your Charter Partner (or CP Rep) in the conversation. He or she can settle the question in a hurry. Your Troop Commissioner may be able to head off the problem before you have to resort to going to the CP. The point to make is that the ASM who wants to take over the Troop envisions making your organization something other than a Boy Scout Troop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 What would I do with an ASM in this situation? Tell him in no uncertain terms of my complete and utter disdain for his unwillingness to assist the SM. Either he can support the adults who are stepping up or get out of the way. A scout is trustworthy, he betrayed trust by not doing the adult QM like he said he would. Now the boys will need to take up his slack. Why the blazes would anyone want to give him any other responsibilities? If I was asked to be SM, I would talk to the COR about who I trust and don't trust to be my assistants. If he/she puts in who I trust, I stay. If not, I walk. Even if I weren't asked to be SM, I'd make it quite clear who I would be glad to assist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER. I just lived through something that started off just like this. Hopefully your case is different. I had a very smooth talking narcissist. Unbelievable experience. All talk, no walk. Complete disregard for any rules or authority. He lied and lied with all sorts of reasons why we prevented him from doing what he volunteered to do. And just the nicest guy. He could sell ice in the Arctic. The very long story short is he harassed and bullied adults in the troop to the point where we threw him out. Even his son was picking up on this, but that was probably because he was paid for two months of cell phone coverage for each rank advancement. He's a creeper. It might not be as bad for you but it will be bad if your guy becomes SM. Is there someone else that is willing to be SM? I bet this guy is one smooth talker and it's possible the SM has bought into his BS hook line and sinker. If the other adults are drinking the kool aid I'd be prepared to leave. However, try confronting him. I'm serious. Not by email but in front of the other adults. Bullies don't like that. It doesn't need to be mean. But just ask him why he hasn't done X, Y, and Z when he said he'd do these things. When the excuses come out call him on them. Be polite, but hold his feet to the fire. "No, that's not what happened, we were all in that meeting and you did not volunteer to help anyone." It is harsh but this guy might be counting on everyone being nice to him. Also, I'd talk to the SM and other adults to see what they think. I hope I'm way off base but your story brings up bad memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhendron Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I echo the suggestions above re getting your charter org rep involved. A sit down him him/her, the SM and the committee chair to ensure everyone is on the same page. This is Boy Scouts, and most charters want a traditional Boy Scout program. As a former SM myself, I have had leaders go off of the rails before on the thankfully rare occasion. Sadly, as charter rep I have been forced to dismiss two leaders (an SM and an ASM) a few years ago, and did some housecleaning again last year in our Troop and Crew. A reminder to your wayward ASM that he serves at the pleasure of the charter, along with what he committed to do as an ASM when he signed on the dotted line appears to be in order. We are all volunteers, and as such take the good with the not so good. Hopefully, after a wake-up call, your ASM can join the team. If not...well, he can always be encouraged to find other opportunities elsewhere. Just make sure it is done diplomatically, and that anything that occurs is for a better youth program. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdidochas Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 2 part question A little background first The SM and a long time ASM of my son’s troop, met in Tigers and both their son’s made Eagle and aged out in 2014. The ASM was the Troops Quartermaster and has pretty much stopped doing anything since last spring. The SM has been involved with the Troop since 2001 (with an older son) and has been the SM for the last 6 or 7 years. Even though the SM makes Troop and PLC meetings he just went on his first campout with the Troop last weekend. He has spent more time with his son and Daughter’s Venturing Crew than the Troop this year. So basically these two have checked out but not stepped down. There is another ASM who has decided that after 3 years of sitting back and just being a body on a campout once in a while he going to step up and fix things. The only Scouting background he has is the 3 years he has been in the Troop. He has taken SM training After a few conversations about the future of the Troop I’ve gotten this from him. During our discussions I said that for a Troop to be successful using the Patrol Method, the adults need to all be committed. He said he would not be committed to using anything. He doesn’t think we should be using the 8 Methods all the time. We can toss them depending on the situation. He is always suggesting that we combine/split up patrols on campouts. He has stated that are others ways to do things besides the boy scout program and we should use them The Boy Scout program was developed by BP over 100 years ago and it is old and outdated. We need to use new ideas. The SM has it clear that we use the Boy Scout Program and the Patrol method. When I reminded him as ASM’s we are here to help the SM fulfill his vision of the program his response was “he will do no such thing. Everything he does is for in best interest of the boys†He has also decided to take over as the Troop Quartermaster. On the Committee side the Fundraising is pretty disorganized and he is going to get involved and fix that too. He now going to be at all campouts and so he can make sure we are doing what’s best for the boys The SM had to go out of town for work and asked him to be the second adult at last month’s PLC meetings. He is now planning on attending them all and went ahead and invited all the other ASM’s to be there also. He also basically told one of our committee people they could be an ASM. I don’t know why our SM doesn’t want the person as an ASM but that’s the SM’s call, He asked how the committee meeting ran. He doesn’t think that is being run correctly so he will be attending all of them to see if he can slowly fix them too. …and he plays in a band and is going to concentrate on getting his band playing out more this spring I have to say my son’s SM has done a pretty good job with the Troop. In the two years since my son and I have joined he has have really tried to be a boy-led unit and use the patrol method. I think these are the reason the Troop has more than doubled in size and we have done a pretty good job with retaining the scouts we have. Personally I think this guy is full of it – all talk and no action. He has done very little as quartermaster. He didn’t go on the campout this weekend. Half the propane tanks were empty and he never put together a 5th patrol box. I just found out that someone else is helping with the next fundraiser – he couldn’t make it From my discussions with him he doesn’t really have an understanding of the different methods of Scouting and he has little or no practical experience – but he’s an expert at all of it My concern is that he now has the other new adults convinced that the boy-led and patrol method are not the way to go and to move away from using them. What do you do with an ASM like this in this situation? Part Two The SM has said that he will be stepping down in the near future. It could be as soon as this Fall but it could go on like this for another year. I see this ASM as being a real problem to deal with for the next SM for the Troop. (he has said he doesn't want it) If you got asked to be the SM how would you deal with this person? Adult quartermasters? What kind of craziness is that? Now, we have a committee member who's the equipment chair, but his job is to help the Scout who is Quartermaster. Is this guy trained? If he's not, training would be the first requirement. The other question is what do the COR and CC think of this guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNYScouter Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 There used to be a way to do a spin off topic but I couldn't find the function so I started a new topic - No youth willing to be Troop Quartermaster Yes the guy has taken Scoutmaster Basic training. He just thinks the BSA program old and antiquated. As most of this has happen in the last week or so I haven't had time to talk with the COR or CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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