​Eagle scout project Proposals need metrics

[scoutergipper]

Lest we forget, an Eagle Project is supposed to benefit a non-profit or some other appropriate entity. I sincerely doubt that the beneficiaries of these projects are not asking for specifics when they agree to partner with the Scout on the project. If Scouts are going out and promising - as in the example above - 1000 gravestones and delivering only 10, Scouting is going to have another detractor in the community, which is the last thing we need.

[Stosh]

 

I agree and that is a real concern. But I would really like to know if it is a 1000 or a 100 or 10. Plans change. Things happen. But at some point, the project is not what was approved and right now there is little to hold them accountable.

 

Yes, a proposal was submitted with no metrics, no expectations of success/failure, etc. just "a survey of stones". For the most part, no one would judge the success of the project and no known results were available or even predictable at the beginning.

 

As it turned out, the boys went out on 5 different Saturdays and covered 5 different cemeteries. More than enough time was spent on the project. The scope was not important. The efforts did produce 19 stones that were eventually replaced by the VA. These were on graves of solders well over 100 years old. No family was made aware of the replacement stones. The only "benefit" was the awareness of the boys making the survey. The cemeteries didn't care one way or another. The VA director was "thankful" to the boys for their efforts.

 

The only thing that was "accomplished" was 19 new stones on old graves which the boy identified and the VA did the actual work afterwards.

 

It's kinda like retiring US flags in a private ceremony..... It's important that it is done, and done correctly. The people working on that EP learned that lesson very well.

 

If I were to suggest to another boy to repeat this EP in different cemeteries, I would encourage him, in all honesty to the project, to NOT put metrics in the proposal. How can a boy honestly predict a survey finding?

 

Accountability? The honesty of the scout is the real key of one's leadership character. I have often wondered about the honesty of a lot of EP's and it has absolutely nothing to do with metrics.....

 

Stosh

[fred johnson]

If I were to suggest to another boy to repeat this EP in different cemeteries' date=' I would encourage him, in all honesty to the project, to NOT put metrics in the proposal. How can a boy honestly predict a survey finding? [/quote']

 

That would be the wrong metric then if it can't be estimated. A better estimate would be how many cemeteries that will be surveyed and how many headstones are in those cemeteries (roughly). Or, how many days or how many survey sessions will be performed. At some point the scout has to make a commitment about something. The idea is that something should be estimated.

 

To say scope is not important is wrong. Yes, project vary greatly in size, cost and effort. That's fine. But the Eagle project is also about saying what you are going to do and then doing it.

 

 

Accountability? The honesty of the scout is the real key of one's leadership character. I have often wondered about the honesty of a lot of EP's and it has absolutely nothing to do with metrics.....

 

Honesty is often the first thing compromised when people feel pressure. Most scouts are under great pressure when doing their Eagle project. To some degree, by having some numbers, it helps keep the scout honest.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm not arguing for the process to return to what it was years ago. But it seems wrong to have just "I'm going to survey cemeteries for broken head stones". It should be, "I'm going to survey five cemeteries..." or "we're will to use three Saturday mornings to survey local cemeteries for ..."

[Stosh]

What seems to be the focus here is what scope, measurement, level does a boy have to do to merit an EP? It's not a measure of metrics, it's a measurement of subjectivity. Does 4 cemeteries not count or does it have to be 5? What about 1 big one or 3 small ones? How do we measure to make sure the boy is honest?

 

What was meant as an opportunity to demonstrate one's leadership abilities has turned into a functional management task that can be specifically defined with measurable metrics. Metrics cannot measure leadership, only the task at hand.

 

This is the problem with the conflict in understanding the difference between leadership and management. I can show metrics until they come out the wazoo, but it will not reflect one iota on my leadership ability. I can organize a fantastic project, making sure the materials are on hand and paid for, the tools are ready to be used and all permits and approvals in hand and a schedule spelled out and publicized well in advance. But if no one shows up because I'm a domineering task-master PL and no one likes me, it is a rather stark and ominous announcement of my leadership ability.

 

Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

I will be doing the cleanup and landscaping around the new addition our church just completed. Everything will be provided for the landscaping by the congregation and I will be directing the work crews of church members' date=' scouts and friends to complete the project. I will be organizing groups to go around to cemeteries and evaluating military grave sites to make sure all veterans have a marker, the marker is readable and if not make an application request to the Veterans' Administration to have a new marker placed.[/quote'] I am pretty sure that first one would not fly with our district advancement committee, and our SM would advise the Scout of that fact in advance. And I would agree. "Landscaping" is an idea, not a description. There has to be more. Not necessarily numbers, but I don't see why not. As for the second one, I would probably take that description to mean the Scout will do this at all of the cemeteries in "town", whatever that term might mean locally. In some places that might mean that the project is not enough for the Scout to demonstrate planning and leadership. In other places it might mean the project scope is ridiculously large for one project. So if that's not what the Scout means, he should say so. Let's also remember that there are other sections in the proposal portion of the workbook. I believe one asks the Scout to put down some preliminary thoughts that will go into the "Plan." (I don't have the language in front of me.) If all you've got in mind so far is "landscaping" with no specifics, I don't see how you complete that preliminary planning section, either. If you really don't know what you're going to do, how can you start thinking about how you're going to do it?

[SeattlePioneer]

Ummm.

 

In the Scout Troops I've been involved with (ten years ago or more) all the Eagle candidates came up with reasonable projects and did them in reasonably good style.

 

I doubt there is much protection available against boys, parents and units with a mind to get the badge with a minimum of effort.

 

Probably not worth the effort to try, I would guess.

 

Scouting is about learning good character. Some people never learn.

[Stosh]

Landscaping according to what the church plans that have been outlined? Surely this is no different than the construction blueprints of a gazebo or foot-bridge some boy put up. The boy doesn't have to design the landscaping, just guide the groups in doing what the plan says. If some boy says he is going to construct a gazebo outside the nursing home so the residence can go outside and enjoy the summer weather, does it really make any difference if the gazebo is round, square, rectangular hexagonal or octagonal? Putting in bushes or cutting lumber according to spec is not an intricate part of a "brief description." Obviously we are back to expectations that go beyond the advancement requirements, something forbidden in all BSA literature. Surely if one is going to assume something, a church is not going to just let some kids toss in some bushes willy-nilly around something as important as a church building. One has to assume that the boy has been in extensive dialog with the church council as to exactly what it is they want provided. Requiring that to be explained in detail briefly is a ridiculous as expecting the boy to provide the number of nails and screws that will be needed for the gazebo. Neither are part of a brief description in anyone's book, except maybe some over-controlling scouters. And by the way of the two projects questioned by the advancement committee, this one wasn't.

 

The second project was questioned, but not because of it's scope. It was questioned because it wasn't deemed a worthwhile Eagle Project. They questioned the benefit definition. Who's going to benefit from this project? Dead veterans? Their families? the cemeteries? the VA? Fortunately others besides the advancement committee realized that doing the right thing is benefiting a lot of people in a lot of different ways. Far too many to enumerate in a brief description.

 

And seriously? In this day and age, how many Eagle Projects sponsored by a federal agency are you aware of? And it made the newspapers for the community and state to see. That was quite a coup to see...

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

I'm beginning to buy in to Stosh's view.

For Son #2, a councilman has a project in mind of nebulous scope ... one of those federal/state unfunded mandates with lots of steps, and no idea how long each will take. But, if he can get a dozen youth to have at it for a couple of weekends, they may achieve Step A. Even if incomplete (i.e. not successful from the viewpoint of some scouters), the borough will have a good estimate of how long it would take to complete the work, then they could budget/solicit more volunteers accordingly. They would be happy with anything ... not for the boy's sake, but because otherwise they can expect to have nothing for quite a while.

 

The metric in this case would be several afternoons/weekends coordinating volunteers in the community. The deliverable would be a summary of the results and the man-hours expended. With that data in hand, a clever grant writer can apply for some real money, a lawyer can fend off a plaintiff, or the next group of volunteers can commit to finishing.

[MattR]

... The boy doesn't have to design the landscaping' date=' just guide the groups in doing what the plan says....[/quote']

 

​We would likely not accept a landscape project that the scout didn't design. Our reasoning is if someone else figured out the plan then all the scout is doing is providing labor, which is the dreaded mid level management. But if a scout designs the plan, he really is in charge of everything. He comes up with the plan while working with the benefactor, presents it to them and the troop, then does it. Since the benefactor wants assurances of what it is then they will want more than "I'll do the landscaping." It's no different than hiring someone to do landscaping. Or better yet, it's just like a service project. People doing most service projects usually have to figure out most of the details.

[Stosh]

 

​We would likely not accept a landscape project that the scout didn't design. Our reasoning is if someone else figured out the plan then all the scout is doing is providing labor, which is the dreaded mid level management. But if a scout designs the plan, he really is in charge of everything. He comes up with the plan while working with the benefactor, presents it to them and the troop, then does it. Since the benefactor wants assurances of what it is then they will want more than "I'll do the landscaping." It's no different than hiring someone to do landscaping. Or better yet, it's just like a service project. People doing most service projects usually have to figure out most of the details.

 

If one were to accept this premise, then every EP that involves construction, i.e. a gazebo or a foot bridge, or picnic tables or picnic shelter, the scout would need to architect the blue prints for the project to qualify???? If the boy is expected to provide professional landscaping plans, then those doing construction should be expected to provide the blueprints as well. If someone else is doing the gazebo blueprint, then "all the scout is doing is providing labor, which is the dreaded mid level management. But if the the scout designs the plan, he really is in charge of everything." Seriously? I don't think anyone in any capacity expects a scout to what professionally trained people do for a living in order to get credit on an Eagle Project? If this was brought up to my attention, I would cry foul, "adding to the requirements" in a heartbeat.

 

Sorry, that's well beyond the "show leadership" in a project in my book.

 

As a matter of fact I believe a boy could very effectively show his leadership ability by leading professional laborers on a architecturally designed project Team leads and supervisors do it all the time. So the boy builds a garage storage unit for a church. He coordinates the work of the backhoe operator to get the site ready, then the masons to put in the footings, the cement workers to pour the flooring, the construction workers to put up the building, the roofers to shingle the roof and finally the electrician to put in lighting and the garage door opener. There's a lot of leadership, organizing, scheduling and leadership needed to pull that all together. Some people even do that full time for a living. Where does it say that the project has to involve any scouts or scouters other than the eagle candidate?

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

Eagle Scout Requirement 5

While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your unit leader and unit committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (Emphasis added)

 

I completely disagree with your last post, Stosh. The differential characteristic between leadership and management is vision. Executing someone else's plans is management. Having a vision for bettering your patrol, troop or community and motivating others to work toward that vision is leadership. And as we see in the black-letter language of the requirement, planning and development is part of it. Yes, every Scout in our troop who has a construction-oriented project develops his own plans, drawings, materials list, budget and schedule.

 

Cleaning up around the church and adding some bushes according to someone else's plan in what is routine maintenance. It is specifically excluded as an Eagle project. I think you are wrong to assume that all beneficiaries are on top of the process and will develop and approve the details with the Scout. My experience is exactly the opposite -- most beneficiaries assume the Scouts' leaders will do all that. Most, in fact, are surprised to learn they are responsible for approving and supervising the work. I suspect if we really pushed the point that the work is to be done through their organization, that all fundraising should go through their tax ID number, and they are responsible for any liability, many would refuse to participate. A friend of mine does a lot of the facilities maintenance for a charter school his wife runs. He has had several Scouts do EPs at the school. It was extremely frustrating for him to the point he was not going to work with further EP. Why? Because his expectation was for the Scouts to show up knowing exactly needed to be done and the Scout's leaders would run things.

 

I also highly doubt your scenario of a Scout managing a bunch of professional sub-contractors and calling it leadership. The subs are not going to let the Scout lead. They're going to tell him what they're going to do. That's why you hire them in the first place. I'm a general contractor and work with these guys every day. The greatest challenge in monitoring Eagle projects is keeping the dads from jumping in and taking over. I can only imagine dealing with a bunch of contractors who have no clue how Scouting is supposed to work. Besides, why hire-out these different trades? The logical conclusion of this would be one phone call to Lowe's and have them drop off a pre-fab storage shed. What's the difference? He can demonstrate leadership by telling the driver where to put the building.

 

Back to your earlier posts (I've been unable to respond for a couple days) No doubt the grave marker project is a cool one very near and dear to me. (My sons think everyone stops in old country cemeteries and wanders around -- they grew up doing it.) But if the Scout's "brief description" was as you laid out, he would have a hard time getting my approval or that of our local committee. But with a little coaching and advice on how to play the game, it would certainly be a great project.

 

What would have happened if he did the survey and found no markers in need of repair/replacement? Would that have been considered a success? Has the Scout provided a benefit to the community if all he did was to walk around the cemetery and say, "Looks good." Eagle projects aren't just smoke grinders for demonstrating leadership with no purpose. Co-equal to demonstrating leadership is the requirement to provide a benefit to the community. That sort of problem could be avoided by working with a knowledgeable beneficiary, such as the local VFW or American Legion who can steer the Scout to cemeteries in need of restoration. They can also serve as the official beneficiary "which is required by BSA, even though they don't own the cemeteries or individual graves.

[Stosh]

Twocubdad, don't want to quote your whole post, but just pick up on a couple of points. The verbiage of the requirement is quite clear and the conclusion drawn doesn't fit. It assumes more than what is written. What a scout plans might be scheduling, organizing, coordination of materials, etc. not necessarily design of the project. That's an assumption that goes beyond what a boy could quite honestly define as beyond the scope of the requirement. If someone wanted a footbridge built across a small stream wouldn't it be prudent to have someone who knows stress factors, spring flooding, load capacities and such rather than have some 16 year old kid put something together? Even building contractors who build buildings rely on professional architects to work with the client to make sure they get what they want and it's within code. I seriously doubt whether all EP's are totally designed by the scout or whether they rely on project plans provided by others who are more competent to do so.

 

Also the difference between leadership and management by definition is NOT vision. Management's focus is on the successful culmination of a project. Leadership on the other hand focuses on the people doing the task, not the task itself. If a manager was responsible for building a bridge, he could in fact do it by himself because the only thing that defines success is the completion of the task. If he wishes to have others help him in the task he has to lead others to willingly join him in completing the task. Ever have an eagle candidate schedule a work day and no one shows up? His vision? What's that got to do with anything. His vision is his Eagle medal. Maybe he's the only one that shares that vision.

 

As far as the VFW/AmLegion suggestions? Well they are supposed to identify poor and aging stones when they place Memorial Day flags. Well, they don't! That's the problem. The Veterans' Admin was elated when the boy came forward and wanted to do it as a project. They were so excited they must have missed the part where they did a background check on his religious affiliation or sexual orientation. I knew of poor stones so I knew the boys would find some. I also know those military stones are made of marble and last about 100 years. We have hundreds of buried veterans who have had stones far longer than that. (I cheated on my knowledge base. I do stone maintenance of military stones in national cemeteries as a volunteer) If those stones go bad, those in local cemeteries must do so as well.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Well, the Scouts in our troop do design their own projects. They frequently complete drafting merit badge in the process. In 10 years we've had only one project which required engineered drawings and that only because the local YMCA was the beneficiary. As a commercial property, the plans and permits required are much more stringent than would have been otherwise required.

 

Our guys have created their own plans and drawings for picnic tables, a number of different styles of park benches, a reading area for a school library, an outdoor fire pit and gathering area for a church group, information kiosks, park signage -- all of which the Scouts were able to complete on their own without the services of an engineer or architect. The plans don't have to be fancy or pretty, just accurate enough that they are useful in completing the project.

 

But more to the point, this is where a good EP mentor is important. They can guide the Scouts through what is and isn't appropriate for an EP We don't expect Scouts (or 95% of adults) to know when engineered plans, licensure and insurance requirements or building codes. Two of our EP mentors do guide the Scouts to avoid those pitfalls. Frankly we try to steer our Scouts clear of projects which involve these elements. Satisfying these requirements takes the projects out of the Scouts hands. There are far too many good projects out there which don't require this.

[Stosh]

Our council must be pretty easy going then. I have been involved for 20+ years in 3 different troops, served as UC for many years and never heard of anyone using a EP mentor. We just have the boys read the book, do the orientation presentation provided by the council for all Life scouts and they just do their thng.

 

The only EP that hit a bump in the road that I am aware of was the veteran tombstone project that was questioned but not denied.

 

Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

Our council must be pretty easy going then.

 

Compared to mine, that seems to be true.