The Invisible Scout

[blw2]

you know, I've been thinking.

for the first couple years, I even spoon fed the info to the parents of the boys receiving the religious medal. I wrote up a little half page or so thing, with pictures, and included it with the knot patches... and emailed it out as well..... most of the boys still didn't have it even close.....

 

I was going to post two pictures, and ask, which one looks better on a trail

one with scouts in mismatched garb.... and one in uniform..... but I couldn't find one with scouts in BSA uniform that wasn't staged! I know I've seen them, liken scouts on a mountaintop in uniform.... just couldn't find one.

[Stosh]

On my trek at Philmont, the SM would not allow the uniform. All had to wear troop t-shirt. Needless to say, it was the one event in 30+ years of scouting I have no pictures of except the formal pic at base camp the first day where uniform was required.

 

Both times I ever rolled a canoe in whitewater, I was in full uniform. It dries.

 

At summer camp, the boys can wear anything they want when in camp. But if they wish to go anywhere else, they need uniform. Flags every morning in camp, uniformed. Eat in uniform then off to MB classes in uniform. Waterfront they don't need to be in uniform, but going to and from it's required. The other side effect is I can spot my scouts all the way across the lake! Blaze orange neckers help with that. In one of my previous troops, the honor scouts all wore full uniform all the time and had the expedition hats with colored hat bands/cords so from a distance not only could I ID my boys, but also the PL's ASPL, and SPL, from quite a distance.

 

At 10' can I tell if all the patches are correct? Nope, but at 100 yards in a crowd, I can tell you if he's one of my boys.

 

Once one figures out the importance of the uniform, the leadership and even management of the group is greatly facilitated. Who would have thought that the necker would be a source of patrol pride. Blaze orange neckers for the troop, but the serged edging is the patrol color.

 

Stosh

[Scouter99]

 

It's an odd youth who wants to wear something that requires a 100 page manual.

 

The odd youth is out of luck in the BSA, then, since the Boy Scout uniform section is only 14 pages long, and 4 of them are pictures of merit badges.

 

The uniform is not complex, by for more complex are the idiotic ways in which people get it wrong, you know, "nothing is foolproof to the sufficiently talented fool" and all. Some noggin' who puts his World Conservation Award in place of his World Crest has now made more work than if he'd put it in the correct place, for example. I can't imagine the effort involved in making 12 event patches hang from one button, but by God! they find a way to look stupid if it's the last thing they do.

 

Now, does that mean I have to tell them how dumb they look? No, and I don't. After all, we have movies to do that when they parody all of us based on those few by putting "scouts" in ridiculous flared-out shirts. There's a good reason real scouts don't want to be seen in their uniform, the sloppy few around them who inform the popular view.

 

And, yes, it is absolutely shameful the way people gang up on youth in photos on the Bryan blog, and Bryan should grow some balls and delete those comments.

[blw2]

......

 

At summer camp, the boys can wear anything they want when in camp. But if they wish to go anywhere else, they need uniform. Flags every morning in camp, uniformed. Eat in uniform then off to MB classes in uniform. Waterfront they don't need to be in uniform, but going to and from it's required. The other side effect is I can spot my scouts all the way across the lake! Blaze orange neckers help with that. In one of my previous troops, the honor scouts all wore full uniform all the time and had the expedition hats with colored hat bands/cords so from a distance not only could I ID my boys, but also the PL's ASPL, and SPL, from quite a distance.

 

At 10' can I tell if all the patches are correct? Nope, but at 100 yards in a crowd, I can tell you if he's one of my boys.

....

 

Stosh

got any pictures of your troop to share?

 

[MattR]

I'm with Skip on this one. Ask the scouts what they want. The fact that we have to iron our uniform suggests it doesn't belong outdoors.

 

​I googled for scout pictures in the US, UK, and France. The UK and French pictures all have lots of pictures of generally happy kids and a few of Kate and Bear. Grylls is saying "Every kid deserves an adventure." On the US side there are also some happy kid pictures but also lots of pictures of old out of shape scouters, bored kids saluting, plenty of trail life usa photos, and several other controversial pictures (guns, gays, Madonna, etc). There are also lots of pictures of patches. So, UK kids have adventures and US kids salute. There certainly is an image problem.

 

My guess is our scouts know it and that's why they don't want to wear a uniform. They like adventure so they like wearing the class B's. Those represent adventure. I wonder if we have pushed Eagle so much that it's the major reason for being in scouts. It's not an adventure, it's a patch.

[Sentinel947]

When I searched Boy Scout I got a lot of art of Scouts saluting. Regardless, I too use and treat my class A as a dress uniform. It's not durable enough to hold up to the outdoors. And cleaning it would be a pain. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with Troop T shirts out in nature. Like most things in Scouting, everything needs to be played by local conditions. Scouting is strong where I live, getting Scouts to wear the uniform, and reasonably properly isn't a challenge here. I'm naive probably, but if you run a strong boy led program, where the Scouts are challenged and responsible for the program, they'll take pride in the uniform, and that issue should largely resolve itself.

[qwazse]

... The odd youth is out of luck in the BSA, then, since the Boy Scout uniform section is only 14 pages long, and 4 of them are pictures of merit badges.

 

The uniform is not complex, ... I can't imagine the effort involved in making 12 event patches hang from one button, but by God! they find a way to look stupid if it's the last thing they do. ...

 

Don't forget to add the pages for honors, special recognitions, training awards, service stars, universal and non-unit insignia. No, not complex at all .

 

If you have one boy who gets into the IG and shares what he learns with his buddies, it really can make uniforming exciting. Plus, by recognizing various insignia on scouts and scouters in other troops, crews, and ships, he'll have a touch-stone for interesting conversations.

 

But, say you have boys who just go by the inspection sheet (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34283.pdf) because they are too busy camping and hiking and gourmet cooking to read the IG. Under "Right Pocket"

Jamboree insignia (only one) worn above BSA or interpreter strip.

Order of the Arrow lodge insignia worn on pocket flap.

Temporary insignia worn centered on the pocket or hung from the button.

The Varsity or Venture strip is worn above the BSA strip or above the interpreter strip.

Nameplate, if worn, is centered above the BSA strip, interpreter strip, and Venture or Varsity strip.

 

Note that the "only one" stipulation for Jambo insignia is not applied to temp insignia. There's nowhere else on the sheet that suggests deducting points for "stacked patches". So, Mr. button-busting-12-event-patches may look stupid, but he's not getting docked for it!

 

I don't know if Bryan needs to delete impertinent posts as much as we all need to come up with a good standard reply to them that lets the world know that we scouters love our youth warts-and-all.

[Stosh]

 

Saving one's field uniform for dress only is a load of bovine excrement. No where is it ever described as a dress uniform and military terminology of class-b for a t-shirt ever acceptable. They are just excuses made up by scouters who don't follow the BSA protocol on uniforming in the first place.

 

I have the same pair of uniform pants I purchased for WB back in 1993 that I still wear today. Durability is not an issue. My "everyday" field uniform shirt I wear to meetings to go with my 1993 pair of pants as a temporary patch dated 1993 on it as well. I have never ironed my shirt, it is the polyester/cotton blend fabric. I have never bothered to purchase the new breathable crap uniforms of recent years with the state of the art fabric improvements. The old field uniforms from ages past work just fine and have lasted me 20+ years of weekly wear.

 

Yep this is the same uniform I wear to Eagle Court of Honors as well as whitewater canoeing. It's the same one I wear on Scout Sunday and walk ditches picking up garbage. I have no idea how many times it has gone through the washing machine, both the one in the basement as well as the plunger bucket of summer camp/Jamboree.

 

I did notice that my tan shirt has now faded. I used to be SM of Troop 91, now it's Troop 1 and I can tell the color difference under the removed numeral.

 

I haven't decided whether me or my uniform is going to wear out first, but at the present time, we're both going strong.

 

It is called the BSA field uniform and there is only one style which makes it a truly UNI-form.

 

Stosh

[Cambridgeskip]

Potentially adft question.... what are BSA uniforms made out of? UK uniform shorts are cotton so pretty unsuitable for hiking, canoeing etc. Even if it was, say, nylon based I would have thought standard kit for white water would be a wet suit, splash cag and boyancy aid??

[Stosh]

The era of shirts I use come in 100% cotton and are always looking wrinkled. Not much use in the winter, but then one can wear other garments more appropriate underneath.

 

The shirt I wear is a cotton/polyester blend which is still poor quality for winter, but it doesn't need ironing. This is my workhorse of a uniform.

 

The third shirt, and I have one, is a wool blend of some sort which is used when I'm going to be doing a lot of outdoor stuff in the winter. Not much wear on that uniform.

 

I tend to like the cotton/poly because of it's wrinkle-free appearance, durability of the poly and quick dry properties. I can wash it out the evening before, let it dry overnight and put it on damp the next morning and be dry within an hour.

 

The uniform I dearly love is a reproduction of the 1910 uniform with pants, shirt and tunic. 100% wool, keeps me warm and looks really good. If It is a bit warm out, the tunic is removed and a loose fitting wool shirt is really nice. This is my go-to uniform for spring and fall camporees when the weather turns a bit on the cool side. In really hot weather it can be a bit questionable. But I have done a lot of Civil War reenacting and know how to accommodate heavy wool uniforms in 100-degree heat. I wore it for 100 Centennial Jamboree and I didn't go down from the heat. It did get pretty hot that week.

 

Some of the best uniform materials came out of the 50's and 60's. I have boys wearing the red-piped mule-eared pants and they never complain about wearing out. Getting too small, yes, but they just get passed down to the next smaller boy.

 

Stosh

[skeptic]

Still have a pair of the red piped pants in the closet, but they shrunk while hanging there, so now I can only hope they can be restretched. Or, I guess I could make more effort to accomodate their issues. Still have a couple of the old lightweight seventies shirts I wear occasionally. Also have a number of shirt cousins of the red piped pants that have the same odd problem.

[MattR]

But the original topic was visibility and, honestly, selling what scouts is about to the public. What we are is fun, adventure, and service, but the photos imply pomp and formality. (Sentinel, I googled "US boy scouts" as well as "UK scouts" and "French scouts"). Just look at the top page of the US boy scouts google image results and tell me the BSA doesn't have a horrible image problem. On the first page there are 12 images of scout emblem clip art, 2 Norman Rockwell images, 2 references to membership problems, 5 images of scouts saluting, 2 jamboree images, and a scout showing off his bling at a COH. This is not inviting to a kid. The first picture of anyone having fun is about 3 pages down after more flags, clip art, saluting, bling, membership issues, and a "cult of death"/gestapo reference about some homeland security/BSA thing. Look at French or UK scouts and it's all fun. Even the picture with the Duchess (Kate) has everyone smiling. It's very inviting.

 

I'm glad you're comfortable in the uniform Stosh, I am not. I really like the idea of a uniform. I'd wear it all the time at scout events if it were more practical. It's not the idea of the uniform, it's the uniform itself that's a problem. Honestly, what do we need epaulettes for?

 

Skip, it's supposedly some sort of hi tech fabric ("supplex nylon" or "polyester microfiber"). The issue for me is the weight of the fabric. It doesn't breathe at all.

[Stosh]

I'm sure the Marine Corps soldier that has to dress up in his/her dress blues isn't happy or proud about it either. Those wool coats must be a bear in warm weather.

 

I'm also certain those police officers who have to wear body armor and dark blue uniforms must complain all the time too.

 

And what idiot robs a bank in the middle of July wearing a ski mask for crying out loud.

 

Some people just don't care what they wear as long as it's personally comfortable.

 

A uniform is optional, so knock yourself out all those who find it objectionable in some way. But then don't be surprised when someone mistakenly assumes you to be a parent or spouse of a scouter at a scout function.

 

I once thought I was misidentified while wearing a scout uniform. My girlfriend and I were having dinner at a Chinese buffet and when I was finished I asked for my bill because it wasn't coming quickly and I had to get to a scout meeting. The waitress told me someone had picked up the tab. She indicated a young couple a few booths away that had two small kids. (one infant, one toddler).

 

I went over there and told them I wasn't a military soldier and that because of that mistake I would like to pay for my girlfriend and my dinners. The young man stood up, shook my hand and smiled saying. I know you are a scoutmaster and I appreciate all you do for the youth in our community.

 

I was kinda surprised. Well, I don't expect that to ever happen again, but surely just the uniform kept me from being invisible in that situation.

 

I have had others stop by and thank me as well, without picking up the tab for dinner.

 

I had a situation this past summer that was quite similar. I got a flat tire on my car while on vacation. I pulled over and a pickup truck pulled in behind me. The driver got out and said he noticed I had a flat and then proceeded to change it. (I must look like I'm a senior citizen... oh, yes, I am) I offered to pay him for his kindness and he refused. I asked him if he was ever a scout and he smile and said just one word. "Eagle", got back in his truck and drove off. Oh, how I wished the world wasn't full of invisible scouts.

 

Stosh

[Sentinel947]

Saving one's field uniform for dress only is a load of bovine excrement. No where is it ever described as a dress uniform and military terminology of class-b for a t-shirt ever acceptable. They are just excuses made up by scouters who don't follow the BSA protocol on uniforming in the first place.

 

 

 

I'm assuming that wasn't aimed directly at me but since it was so close to my post, I feel compelled to reply. Your generalization is not accurate. I follow the BSA's Uniform guide. I wear the complete uniform to every Meeting, Outing, and ceremony. However, I'm not sure what "BSA protocol on uniforming" you are referring to. I use the "Guide to to Awards and Insignia and the Boy Scout Handbook". http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pd...6_Section1.pdf

 

In said Guide.. it states: "The Boy Scouts of America has always been a uniformed body. Its uniforms help to create a sense of belonging. They symbolize character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. Wearing a uniform gives youth and adult members a sense of identification and commitment."

 

I believe that is a perfect reason to have a standard uniform. However, it also says:

 

"​While wearing the uniform is not mandatory, it is highly encouraged. The leaders of Scouting both volunteer and professionalâ€â€promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions."

 

The key phrase in this game of scrabble is not bovine excrement, but "on all suitable occasions." In the view of my Troop at it's volunteers, out in field on a camping Trip, a uniform that is well over $100 dollars would be a financial burden to replace and an inconvenience to parents. Personally, I don't believe the Centennial Uniform is particularly durable or suitable for the back country.

 

"Class B" is not an official BSA term, but has been in use in the BSA vernacular that I don't think I committed a deadly sin by using said term in it's appropriate context.

 

I understand that you disagree. That's fine. You can have all the strongly worded opinions you want, but I think you should be more charitable to your fellow Scouters. Or you can be the Uniform Police. Every troop in my area seems to operate the same way.

 

And that way is really simply described in the Scout book I used as a youth. If you want to follow along at home it is the 11th Edition of the Scout Handbook. I repeat what it says on Page 12 and 13 under the title "The Scout Uniform."

 

"The Complete official uniform includes the Scout long-sleeved or short sleeved shirt, Scout pants or shorts, Scout belt and buckle, Scout socks or knee socks. A neckerchief and cap or campaign hat are optional. Wear full uniform for all ceremonial and indoor activities, such as troop meetings, courts of honor, and most other indoor functions. The uniform should also be worn during special outdoor occasions, such as Scout shows, flag ceremonies and special times at summer camp. (Emphasis added for clarity) ​For outdoor activities, Scouts may wear troop or camp t shirts with the scout pants or shorts, or other appropriate attire."

 

That sounds a bit like wearing it for ceremonial and indoor occasions, which I described like a dress uniform. I'll still describe it that way. Sorry.

 

So in short. I'm not making things up, nor am I making excuses. It would seem you've made your own policy, but I'll let you speak for yourself and not make assumptions. That way, only one of us is stepping in bovine excrement.

 

Sorry for yanking your chain Stosh, I can't help myself. =P

 

Sentinel947

[Stosh]

Senteninal947 - My apologies if you thought the post was directed at you. In no way was it. Often people post an idea that I respond to and don't even consider the source.

 

We are talking about identify/visibility of the scouting program. And yet people tend to not be visible by not wearing the one item that distinctly identifies them. That's the bovine issue here. Why is everyone concerned about visibility and then go out of their way to be invisible to the world.

 

 

Here's one of my Eagles doing his project of cleaning up an abandoned veterans memorial park. He is in the process of pulling a muddy log out of the trout pond. It is also interesting to note that half of the 20-25 people there were non-scouts, but all the scouts were in full uniform. As you can see identity the boy as a scout and the picture in the newspaper were not posed/polished PR pictures. He is easily recognized as a scout even though he's wearing a 1960's vintage uniform.

 

The point I was making was the uniform is not reserved just for formal occasions. Indoors were no one see us, it's okay to wear the field uniform but outside a scout MAY just wear a t-shirt and other appropriate attire. How many fields do you know of that are inside? People today have redefined what field uniform means. That's the point being made. When BSA says one MAY wear other clothing at a scout activity outdoors, it doesn't change the policy, it only makes it more difficult to preserve the identifying aspects of the program we are discussing in this thread.

 

Tthe BSA also says a scout MAY wear a t-shirt with scout pants or other appropriate attire when outdoors, i.e. in public.. I have never seen a scout wearing scout pants very often even with his field uniform. So that policy although quoted as a reference is not observed very often if at all.

 

The truly unfortunate part of the discussion is on the visibility of the scouting program and the one item that will identify them to the public in a heartbeat is the one item that is abused the most.

 

I find the whole discussion rather trite after all. Here we are discussing how national need to step up the PR and get noticed and 99% of the units out there are doing everything they can to counter their efforts.

 

Again, my apologies if you took my post to be focused at you. It wasn't The uniform is official called the BSA field uniform, not dress uniform. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

Stosh