Medical Forms - Please Interpret the following:

[debbi821]

Please interpret what is meant by "any and all activities" in the following sentences:

 

~~For any and all Scouting activities, all participants must complete Part A and Part B. "All participants" includes parents, guardians, siblings, youth, staff, and unit leaders.

 

I really NEED TO KNOW how others would interpret this. Does it mean ALL Activities, as in troop meetings, patrol meetings, eagle projects, any time scouts get together? Or does it mean campouts? Or just outings away from where normal meetings are held?

 

I am desperate for clarification. Every time I call council or district the interpretation depends on who I talk to, no one agrees.... This is a HUGE issue for me (I interpret it very different than how our troop does, and I am the medical form keeper) and I need some clarification before our committee meeting on Tuesday.

 

All comments are appreciated. Thanks!

[qwazse]

You're not gonna get unified answer from this site. So here's my working definition:

 

Activities are anything where if there is an emergency, medical info would not be available when professional personnel would need it as they begin to treat the youth.

 

Meetings are not activities. If your parents are in the vicinity, then they will be the purveyors of info, not you.

 

Needless to say, for eagle projects, it depends.

[debbi821]

I like your comment regarding parents. Our troop is a babysitter though. 90%+ of our parents are drop and go. We have had a few times that a parent has not be reachable when we have needed to get ahold of them.

 

So, what about:

anyone who needs their swimming/life saving for 1st/2nd class, scoutmaster will be holding a lesson at the rec pool.... rsvp if you will be there.

Scoutmaster will be holding Operation First Class (to finish your ranking) at his house this weekend... RSVP

SPL and troop guides will be leading orienteering for new scouts at the local park - rsvp.

Meeting after a campout (once a month) is activity night... we will meet at the bowling ally, trampoline park, local park, etc instead of holding a troop meeting.

 

In each of those cases parents do NOT stay.

 

thank you for your input! =]

 

[TAHAWK]

It has been my experience that meetings are not called "activities."

 

BSA's website has language that strongly supports qwazse's interpretation:

 

The Scouting adventure, camping trips, high-adventure excursions, and having fun are important to everyone in Scoutingâ€â€and so are your safety and well-being. Completing the Annual Health and Medical Record is the first step in making sure you have a great Scouting experience. So what do you need?

All Scouting Events. All participants in all Scouting activities, such as local tours and weekend camping trips of fewer than 72 hours, need to complete and return to their unit leader parts A and B of the Annual Health and Medical Record. These forms need to be updated at least annually. Part A is an informed consent, release agreement, and authorization that needs to be signed by every participant (or a parent and/or legal guardian for all youth under 18). Part B is general information and a health history.

 

[qwazse]

Some say "babysitter", others say "free of helicopters". By vicinity, I mean, if SM calls and says he's taking them to X hospital, they'll be there before the ambulance. (For that, med forms are useless. A roster with phone #s is the thing.)

[scoutldr]

I haven't seen RichardB in a while...he is the National POC for G2SS issues. "any and all activities" is pretty unambiguous. If that's not what BSA meant, they need to revise the language. For the swimming example you posted above, I would say definitely yes. If every Scout has a parent or LEGAL guardian present for the activity, then they assume the responsibility for medical issues, not the Scouters. I would insist that every Scout have a permission slip signed by the parent for every activity that is not a routine meeting. Caveat: I am not an attorney.

[scoutergipper]

"Any and all" seems pretty self-explanatory. I would be interested in the thinking behind describing something that isn't part of "all." No one should question whether a Troop Meeting is a "Scout activity." Any time Scouts get together for a meeting that is "official" it's a Scout activity. Lawyerly parsing of word definitions is not going to save anyone once we get into Court. You might have better luck with "participant," but not much.

 

I would also be interested to know why there is a "desperate" need to have a definition of this simple paragraph. If someone is refusing to submit a simple medical form, they are trouble and not the kind of people you want in your Pack/Troop/Crew.

[NJCubScouter]

I think there is a "wrinkle" here that affects whether you need to have Parts A and B of the medical form on file for every Scout, and it has nothing to do with the definition of "activity."

 

Requirement 2 for the Scout badge (joining requirements) says: "Complete a Boy Scout application and health history signed by your parent or guardian." Requirement 10 says: "Turn in your Boy Scout application and health history form signed by your parent or guardian, then participate in a Scoutmaster conference.

 

What "health history form" are they talking about? There used to be one on the back of the youth membership application, so that is what they were talking about, but it isn't there anymore. The helpful (though unofficial) web site usscouts.org contains this explanatory note:

 

The "Boy Scout Application" mentioned in item 2 is the "BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA YOUTH APPLICATION" (524-406A). The instructions on that form reference a "personal health history, No. 521-006", which used to appear on the back of the last page of the application form, and has apparently been discontinued. As a substitute, use parts A & B of the Annual Health and Medical Record (680-001) for the health history. Copies of these forms can be downloaded from BSA using the links below.

 

(See http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank1.asp)

 

That sounds like good advice to me. If it is followed, every new Scout will have handed in Parts A and B of the medical form, signed by their parent or guardian at the time they joined. (Parts A and B do not require a physical examination nor any signature by a medical professional; Part C does.) Now, that covers the new Scouts. However, to be a Tenderfoot a Scout needs to have gone on at least one camping trips, which is clearly an "activity", so their Parts A and B should be on file with the troop as well. (Not to mention that in most troops, all but the brand-newest Scouts have been on at least one camping trip anyway, and probably many more.)

 

So I think that covers everybody. All Scouts should have submitted a "health history" with their application, either the one on the back of the application, or Parts A and B with their application, and older Scouts should have submitted Parts A and B to go on camping trips.

 

Or am I missing something?

[Twocubdad]

From a practical standpoint, it doesn't matter. We collect A/B medical form at crossover and whenever a new Scout joins. By summer camp they need to have part (physician) submitted.

 

It isn't as if the Scouts bring a new medical form for each activity/meeting/whatever. With the forms in the notebook, we're good regardless how you read the policy.

[qwazse]

d821, I may have misunderstood. Were you thinking that the boy needed to come with a freshly completed part A for every meeting? That's what I was responding to.

 

You DO need complete contact info for every parent. Collect it once, put it on a clean sheet of paper. Before making copies, call every number on the list to make sure you all recorded it correctly, update it at rechartering or more frequently if your parents change phone #s often (it happens).

 

Honestly, when there's that kind of emergency, you will have one irate SM if all there is are a stack of medical records to wade through.

 

You WILL need a medical record for any activity where it would not be practical to wait for a parents' arrival to deliver care beyond first aid. Which means you should collect a copy of A and B one from a boy annually, and for most boys, you would get that along with part C when they go to camp for a week.

 

Frankly, if your troop is full of active boys who actually go out on patrols, etc ... the medical record is best served kept on their person, with the troop copy as a back-up. (This is extremely practical for venturers -- who often participate in events beyond the crew's purview.)

[debbi821]

Here is what we are running in to. Our troop used to never collect forms except when a new scout joined. I was given the task of taking over med forms and making sure they were current. No problem, right? Well, we have at least 1 campout a month and 1-3 activities away from our meeting site. It was taking me over 5 hours each month to confirm current medical forms and to get forms from people who were expired. So, I asked that we make the national policy (current medical forms for everyone) mandatory and also that everyone (active scouts and all adult leaders) have to fill out a new medical form every January before we recharter in mid-February. At first, it was agreed to. then someone complained and the troop decided not to follow through. the complaint was that "med forms are only needed for campouts and people who don't ever do campouts shouldn't have to fill them out. Most of the complaining was done by ASMs (and I think maybe the scoutmaster - he doesn't go on campouts for medical reasons). So, now I am back to square one.... any and all means - ANY TIME 2 or more scouts get together... that is a boyscout activity. At least that is how I feel.

For those that say a meeting isn't an activity. Let me give you this example. My son has a heart defect. He is fine and has no restrictions. If I was to not stay at a meeting (I am always there) and he passed out because the stars aligned just right it could become a matter of life or death on how quickly the Scoutmaster acts. If his med form isn't on file, then no one there has a way to reach me (A phone roster - what's that? HA!). the EMT arrives and they have no clue what caused this to happen, no idea if he has allergies, etc. What now? (my daughter was in a car accident when she was 16. A parent was driving. The EMT made the mom call me to get permission before he would touch my daughter. It was not a life threatening accident, but she had to be moved to the ambulance and be taken to the hospital)

The reason I am desperate for an answer is that I can't get a decisive answer from Council, District or anyone else. We, as a committee, meet this coming Tuesday. I am tired of this fight with them (it has been 2 years) and I want to know if I am correct in feeling we are not following BSA NATIONAL POLICY. because, if I am correct, I will be resigning from the position as I refuse to be held accountable if heaven forbid, a situation like the one above actually happens.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's input.

FYI - our troop has 90+ scouts and 10-15 ASMs. Last year I collected 184 medical forms for people who participated in campouts (parents, scouts, adult leaders, siblings, etc).

[TAHAWK]

debb, the troop I help now collects the forms annually, usually when signing folks up for summer camp. Those who join thereafter complete the forms. It is done because it makes sense.

 

QUOTE=scoutergipper;n424946]"Any and all" seems pretty self-explanatory. I would be interested in the thinking behind describing something that isn't part of "all." No one should question whether a Troop Meeting is a "Scout activity." Any time Scouts get together for a meeting that is "official" it's a Scout activity. Lawyerly parsing of word definitions is not going to save anyone once we get into Court. You might have better luck with "participant," but not much.

 

I would also be interested to know why there is a "desperate" need to have a definition of this simple paragraph. If someone is refusing to submit a simple medical form, they are trouble and not the kind of people you want in your Pack/Troop/Crew.

 

 

First, I see no reason why Part A and Part B should not be completed for meetings. Critical health history can be as needed at a meeting as at an activity. A game on the church lawn can result in an insect sting and anaphylactic shock. I would like to know about that risk and other critical health information in advance. debb's story simply reinforces possibility with reality.

 

 

The issue is whether, by use of the words "any and all Scouting activities" the BSA means any and all Scout functions, such as troop and patrol meetings. That is, is the form required for meetings?

 

The "thinking" would be that some apples are not included in the words "any and all animals." A "meeting" has never been classified as an "activity"

 

 

If BSA means to have the form required for meetings (as I think is should):

 

1. it should stop using language such as:

 

"All participants in all Scouting activities such as local tours and weekend camping trips."

 

[With specific reference to the form] "basic Scouting activities such as local tours and weekend camping trips...."

 

It is a rule of construction that express examples preclude matters not specified unless accompanied by language such as "including but not limited to." (That maxim comes in Latin, but has no greater force than in English.)

 

2. BSA had a slight burden to list the most common of all Scout functions - the meeting - if that is what BSA means us to understand.

 

3. Webelos could have an Activity Badge for attending meetings.

 

4. "Activities"suggested by BSA should include meetings.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Youth/Activities.aspx

http://scoutingmagazine.org/category/boy-scouts/boy-scout-activities/

 

 

BSA is not very good at being clear. That may be a pity as it has access to world-class talent for free. In some cases, the lack of clarity may be deliberate. (See "God")

 

[scoutergipper]

I don't disagree. Every time I think I have things idiot proofed, they create a better idiot.

 

The world we live in seems to require that even the most obvious thing which only the stupidest humans could fail to understand must be explicitly spelled out.

[qwazse]

Well. I gave you one way of interpreting the intent of the med forms. Scoutergripper gave you the opposite. And there's everything in between. So now you can tell your committee there's a half dozen scouters on the internet with as many diverse opinions. They'll be shocked.

 

I'm not against in principle having some basic medical and contact info on file, but you're stuck herding unwilling cats. Tell them what you'd like (which you've already done). Maintain that folder with flags for everything that is outdated. Make sure your key leaders know where it is ... if you've asked someone for something and they've denied it ... that's on them, not the troop, leave it alone. Insert a blank form in your binder with a flag that's your special color for "requested not returned." You're not a failure if only 80% of your peeps are compliant.

 

But, even if everyone has a change of heart and turns in their paperwork ... you need to understand something: these forms work really well for a camp where there is a medic station with a full time crew in radio contact with every camp staff director. For the day-to-day workings of a troop of volunteers ... not so much.

 

With a troop your size working the patrol method to its fullest, you'll have boys on multiple different activities on the same weekend. If you're forcing those forms to be available for every meeting and eagle project (take it to the extreme ... every contact with a merit badge counselor), and a couple of your patrols meet at their convenience, as do your SPL/APL then your troop has a logistics nightmare. You'd have to split up the binder as needed and hope the forms get "checked in" at the end of each group's respective "activity" ... or make copies, then keep track of who has copies for which and make sure they get a fresh copy when a new form is turned in.

 

Let's take your worst-case scenario. Someone collapses into sudden cardiac arrest. Will the person who knows where the form is be there? When he/she opens that binder, will the forms still be in alphabetical order? What's the odds of the sibling/parent form being grabbed? In the four pages of that form, how long will it take that person (not likely a trained medic) to hone in on the relevant data? Since they have the form, would he/she hustle the boy to the ER, consent to treatment, etc ..., and forget to call the parent/guardian???? The victim is better served by a medic alert bracelet.

 

A misplaced faith in paperwork will not forestall death. You scoffed at the phone list. But, when our troop's very bad day happened and our cars were separated by miles in rush hour traffic ... one of the scouts in the accident sat in the officer's car and got online and remembered our website's password and the officer was able to contact all parents involved then the SM, who -- binders full of forms notwithstanding -- was the last to be contacted. Yes, we did pull the med forms, collected siblings and he sped off to the hospital ... just in case a parent didn't beat us there. They did.

 

Take your pick: Burnout from trying to fulfill the literal interpretation of writer at national who knows nothing of your unit ... or fulfillment from making sure you've increased everyone's odds of handling an emergency well.

[packsaddle]

In case anyone's forgotten, lol,...in a critical first aid situation, the first action is NOT to go looking for some damn form.