troops v camps

[Proud Eagle]

Everyone knows that troops that are MB and advancement "factories" are generally not considered to be good representations of the Scouting program. However, most summer camps seem to be the ultimate MB and advancement factories, yet there is rarely been any criticism over this issue. Most people seem to advocate that advancement should take place as a natural outgrowth of being involved in the BSA program. Why then does everyone so highly favor the idea of sending the Scouts off for a week or two to a place that likely forsakes the patrol method, with the primary objective being achieving some sort of advancement? Maybe all five camps I have been to were just poor examples of summer camps, but I find this highly unlikely, especially since stories I have heard about other camps match my own experiences.

[LauraT7]

earning Merit badges during troop meeting time is not considered an effective use of the program, it's true. But I have never heard that working on advancement should not be part of the weekly meetings -Practically EVERYTHING a scout does is part of advancement for somebody, somehow!

Working as a patrol or troop; planning outings, teaching methods, organizing the QM room, learning outdoor skills, holding ceremonies, being tested on a skill by an older scout or adult, participating in a BOR or SM conference, these are all appropriate prts of weekly troop meeting activities AND part of advancement.

 

I've never seen a camp that "likely forsakes the patrol method, with the primary objective being achieving some sort of advancement?"

 

'Badgework' is NOT the same as 'Advancement'.

 

the camps I have been involved with (3 since my son has been a scout and many others when I was a scout and counselor) all PROMOTE the patrol method. They cook in patrols, do chores, compete, sleep and often do badgework as a patrol. The CAMP does not award badges or advancement ranks. the camps my son & I have gone to don't even sign off on ranks - they may teach the skills, but the acceptance of their teaching and possibly testing is left up to the SM and ASM's in the troops who sign off on the requirements.

 

They also don't give a hoot if a boy earns a badge or not. the camps DO provide (presumably trained and knowledgable) Merit Badge counselors - but a boy can certainly hang around the nature hut, do all the experiments and activities offered, and if he never signs up for a badge or tells the counselor he wants to work on a badge, they aren't going to hand it to him.

 

BSA Advancement is structured in two tiers - Tenderfoot, 2nd Class & 1st Class; where a scout is learning the camping, cooking, and physical strengths & skills that make him a safe, dependable and useful member of his 'team' - his patrol. If a boy under First Class goes to camp - he can take advantage of the outdoor setting to 'DO' scouting 24/7 - by participating in program geared toward advancement. Depending on where he is in rank, and what his interests are he may do just advancement work, or do some advancment and some badges. Or he can float in the lake all day - but they usually get interested in all the activities. Practice and concentrated, related experiences help a boy learn and retain those neede skills. Once he HAS the skills, he progresses on to where HE can choose how to use them.

 

There are some "Eagle required' badges that are required for upper level advancement (Star rank and above) and certain number of elective badges are required to advance to Star, Life and Eagle. But very few 'Eagle' badges are offered at camp - many of the Eagle badges just aren't suited to a camp setting - they have 'classwork' and writing that just doesn't appeal at camp.

 

but the 'elective' badges, esp the outdoor ones, are well suited to camp- skills in shooting, waterfront activities, nature, arts and craftsmanship, conservation, science - these are simply a means of motivating the boys to thoughroughly explore an area of interest, to get 'into' something every day, not just for an hour once a week, to expand their horizons and learn, and earning the 'badge' is a reward and acknowledgement for their efforts.

 

they are, after all, still kids. They are just learning that the journey can be the best part of having a goal.

 

the "program" whether at troop meetings, events, or camp, should provide the 'oportunity' to learn. It's up to the boys to take advantage of those opportunities. The reward is skills, knowledge, experience, teamwork and leadership.

 

But not many 12 to 14 yr olds grasp that. they DO grasp the immediate rewards of "I earned a badge", "I earned a rank" or in school - "I got an 'A'" or for chores, "mom paid me $10 to mow the lawn". Hopefully, along about the time they hit Star, Life and Eagle, they start to realize that LEARNING is rewarding in itself, and that the 'prize' is being a capable and self-sufficient person.

 

Camp is not a 'troop' it has a totally different purpose than the troop meetings and activities. it is, essentially, a 'total immersion' in the 'fun' of scouting.

 

laura

[Eamonn]

Only the other week myself and the Vice President for program of our Council were talking about this. The sad thing is that at summer camp we offer very little in the way of promoting the Patrol Method. In fact I would go so far as to say that other then some involvement by the SPL, the Scouts for the most part forget that they even belong to a patrol. The tents are put up in such a way as to please the people who put them up. The Camp Staff. In most cases a nice ring of tents around the site perimeter.Troops are offered the opportunity to be "Self Catering". However it is rare that any troop does. We offer very few activities that are for patrols, those that are offered tend to be end of the day one time things such as an Anything That Floats race.

The Scouts arrive some have planned what merit badges they are doing and when they are doing them. Some leave little time to move from one to the next. It is a Merit Badge Mill.

That same week I was talking with a ASM from a troop in the District which I serve. He said that the troop was going to camp somewhere in New York State. He was a little worried that the trip and the camp was going to cost a little over $300.00. As opposed to the $160.000 that our council charges for summer camp. I asked why they were going he informed me that the camp offered more Merit Badges.

Not to get off subject but.....

1977 was my first taste of American Summer Camp. I came over as an International Scout Counselor. They were unsure what to do with me so thay made me a camp commissioner along with a couple of Merit Badges. One week there was this little Lad who fished. He had a great time fishing everytime that I saw him he was fishing. I have no idea how many fish he caught if any. But it was great a young Lad, a great summer, a great smile a happy kid. I was checking the sites as the troops departed and there was this little fellow along with his parents and his Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster was telling the parents what a no good for nothing son they had and how all he had done all week was fish. I can't ever remember being so upset. I felt like giving the Scoutmaster a good old bop on his nose. Needless to say I didn't. The Scoutmaster is still around the council and is still a miserable old goat. One year when I was on the Silver Beaver Selection committee his name was put forward. Service to youth? Not in my book. He is not a Silver Beaver.

Eamonn

[Eamonn]

Only the other week myself and the Vice President for program of our Council were talking about this. The sad thing is that at summer camp we offer very little in the way of promoting the Patrol Method. In fact I would go so far as to say that other then some involvement by the SPL, the Scouts for the most part forget that they even belong to a patrol. The tents are put up in such a way as to please the people who put them up. The Camp Staff. In most cases a nice ring of tents around the site perimeter.Troops are offered the opportunity to be "Self Catering". However it is rare that any troop does. We offer very few activities that are for patrols, those that are offered tend to be end of the day one time things such as an Anything That Floats race.

The Scouts arrive some have planned what merit badges they are doing and when they are doing them. Some leave little time to move from one to the next. It is a Merit Badge Mill.

That same week I was talking with a ASM from a troop in the District which I serve. He said that the troop was going to camp somewhere in New York State. He was a little worried that the trip and the camp was going to cost a little over $300.00. As opposed to the $160.000 that our council charges for summer camp. I asked why they were going he informed me that the camp offered more Merit Badges.

Not to get off subject but.....

1977 was my first taste of American Summer Camp. I came over as an International Scout Counselor. They were unsure what to do with me so thay made me a camp commissioner along with a couple of Merit Badges. One week there was this little Lad who fished. He had a great time fishing everytime that I saw him he was fishing. I have no idea how many fish he caught if any. But it was great a young Lad, a great summer, a great smile a happy kid. I was checking the sites as the troops departed and there was this little fellow along with his parents and his Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster was telling the parents what a no good for nothing son they had and how all he had done all week was fish. I can't ever remember being so upset. I felt like giving the Scoutmaster a good old bop on his nose. Needless to say I didn't. The Scoutmaster is still around the council and is still a miserable old goat. One year when I was on the Silver Beaver Selection committee his name was put forward. Service to youth? Not in my book. He is not a Silver Beaver.

Eamonn

[Eamonn]

It did it to me again.

Eamonn

[NJCubScouter]

Well, Eamonn, the story about the little boy who fished all week was a good one and worth repeating even if the forum software did it for you.

 

This was something I have tried to follow with my son, who crossed over to a troop in April. When he went to summer camp he was very unsure of himself, partly because he had never been camping without his father before, and here was a whole week away from home. I regarded it as a mixed blessing that they had him (and all the other boys) very tightly scheduled in advance... Tenderfoot requirements Mondays and Tuesday morning, Second Class some other morning, merit badges in the afternoon, instructional swim (which I gladly would have had be his entire week since he is swimming-challenged.) It was good that he had a lot to do and that hopefully he would do some advancement (and maybe even work toward being able to pass Second Class swimming), but I was worried that it would seem too much like school and that he wouldn't have enough fun. So when I arrived to pick him up, I made sure that our first discussion was "Did you have fun" and "What did you do," (which unlike the answer I get when I ask that about school, was not just "I forget.") Only later on the way home did I ask him about advancement.

 

Oh, and he did have fun, but as a result of circumstances including other leaders always seeming to be off somewhere on weekends, he has not been on a camping trip without me since. Trying to be a leader for a group that includes my son, as distinct from being his father, is an interesting challenge, but I guess that is for another part of the forum and another thread.

[Adrianvs]

"One year when I was on the Silver Beaver Selection committee his name was put forward. Service to youth? Not in my book. He is not a Silver Beaver."

 

 

Good form, Eamonn. I posted something on this topic not long ago. Not only are merit badges made the basis for the whole camping program, but scouts are expected to earn several badges during their stay at camp. Some parents and scoutmasters almost see it as an investment to receive a bulk of badges in a week's time. Much of this pressure is distributed to camp staff, who are expected to cram an entire badge into a single day. Well actually, I hear that most camps use the rotation system and spread the badges throughout the week, but the idea is the same.

 

I was allowed to take two blocks (days) to counsel Environmental Science, and it still shocked my how little we really accomplished, as far as requirements go. In most badges, the entire time must be geared towards requirements to get all or most of them completed. This method fails to utilize the resources of camp life, however. Perhaps if it were more common for scouts to complete "classwork" requirements at home, a more practical experience or study could be done in the time and environment given.

[KoreaScouter]

Summer camp is like a Leatherman -- it's a tool with many uses. For first year Scouts, it's a tremendous growth experience and an opportunity to complete many advancement requirements (if planned and executed properly). For experienced Scouts, it's an opportunity to earn Merit Badges with the leverage of council resources their Troop either can't or doesn't maintain. For older Scouts, it's an opportunity to serve on staff and experience this at a completely different level. Not all-inclusive, but you get my point.

 

Summer camp's not outrageously expensive, but it isn't cheap either. And, we're competing with sports camps, band camps, science camps., etc., that all promise specific deliverables to parents. You know, "...at the end of the week, your child will be able to XXX, and will have XXX." They expect, reasonably or not, the same thing from us. We have to be responsive to parents; they're loaning us their sons, after all. And, just as importantly, we have to be responsive to what the Scouts want from their camp experience -- it's their camp. If they want to earn badges, or if they want to swim all week, or fish all week, or just spend a week away from home, laying in the shade of a tree and watching clouds roll by, all those should be okay. One key in my opinion is making sure there's no misunderstandings between the Scouts, their parents, and the leaders about what the Scout wants to get out of his experience, his parents want him to get, and what the camp can deliver.

 

I don't think summer camp, on its face, forces a dilemma when it comes to the patrol method. Granted, Scouts will be going in different directions at different times. But, there are times every day when all the Scouts are in their Troop and patrol camp sites at the same time. The patrol method can be used and reinforced through rosters, details, musters/assemblies, ceremonies, cooking/eating, patrol meetings, etc. Leaders, use imagination.

 

Like many of you, I've also seen summer camps at which MB counselors were hastily pressed into service, unprepared. Or, the program could have been better planned. Or, the meal arrangements could have been better. Frustrating, yes, but all can be compensated for. And, remember, the lads are very resilient and tolerant of human mistakes, as long as they still believe we care.

 

KS

[Eamonn]

KS

I love the way you think. Still I get invited to so many Troop Courts Of Honor where the Scoutmaster gets up and with great pride states that summer camp was a great success we earned X-number of merit badges.

It would be really nice to attend one where the Scoutmaster got up and said something like "It was a great summer,the Owl patrol made the gateway. The Beavers set up a super orienteering course which we all had fun with, the Foxes spend some time preparing a nature hike and that sort of thing.

While I do have a slight problem getting used to the idea of the Council Camp as opposed to the Troop Summer camp in a field. As I see it the camp is not the problem. The problem is with lack of planning before the camp by the PLC Scoutmaster. Having work as a staff member at camp there are a good many leaders who are happy not to plan anything while at camp. Some think that their biggest job for the week is the placement of their easy chair. Please don't laugh it's true. Others use the time to cram in a few more merit badges.

Still the week at camp, the highpoint of the Scouting year for most troops and the patrol method is cast aside? No this can't be right.

Eamonn

See if I can get away with just posting this once??

[Adrianvs]

Yes yes.. If I am selected as program director, I will make it a point of letting the scoutmasters know that we have the facilities and resources for the scouts to do largely as they wish. I have always found fault with using merit badges as a required (or even strongly encouraged) means of spending most of the time at camp. There are so many activities that can be done as an individual, patrol, troop, or small group that needn't be a planned part of the camp program. I have seen that many camp inspectors like to see every scout occupied with a merit badge counselor as they tour the camp. As an older scout who wasn't registered for a merit badge during the block that inspectors were touring campsites, I was actually encouraged to make myself scarce so as not to be seen.

 

We have always had camp-wide activities which are more or less optional, but there is too little time for the scouts to pursue their interests as desired. The moment that scouts are pushed into merit badge sessions by the implicit (or explicit) demand of a full schedule, then they have already ruled out learning anything or enjoying themselves in any meaningful manner. I don't mind instructing large numbers of youth, but I KNOW that this many kids aren't interested in whatever aspect of ecology I am counseling that day. Not only are the majority stuck in an uninteresting situation, but one that ruins the experience for the few that are interested. Last summer, a scoutmaster came up to me and apologized that a couple of his scouts...scouts in the troop that he served, were always down at the Eco-Con building "bugging us" during free time. I had to remind him that such cases are the reason that we staff the areas during free time. With three staffers present, it is hardly an imposition to have a couple of scouts take an interest in the area. A scoutmaster should not apologize for the few scouts who visit during free time. If I wanted apologies, I would ask them of the scoutmaster who sends nine uninterested scouts from his unit to an environmental science session so that they may get it out of the way. Summer camp is not the place to get anything out of the way.

 

I understand that idle hands are the devil's workshop, but idle hands are as common within a merit badge session as outside of one. I also understand that scouters deserve some R+R during the week. But they don't need 8+ hours of scout-free time in camp every day. If the inspectors are of the mind that scouts must be occupied in some structured program every minute of the day, then I must borrow a phrase from FOG, and loudly assert TFB!!!

 

For some reason, I feel like John Kerry running for office. The thought gives me a little nausea, so I will desist.

[CubsRgr8]

The more I hear, the more it sounds like my son's troop does it right - they don't ever attend council summer camp! Instead, they go up to a state forest campsite every summer for a week and run their own program for 70+ scouts. While at summer camp: patrols camp together and cook most of their own meals; there are daily patrol contests; mornings are for advancement (advancement for scouts not yet 1st class - merit badges (although usually just a dozen) for the rest); afternoons and evenings are either camp activities or free time; the PLC meets every evening at 8; BORs are held on site; there's a camp or patrol campfire every night; and the day concludes with the bugler playing taps.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

There might be too much focus on merit badges at summer camp. I know that a recent discussion centered around which camp is better and a large part of it was "how many merit badges are offered."

 

My troop earned 150 merit badges at camp but since then only 10 merit badges have been earned. It seems that no one wants to work on anything outside of summer camp UNLESS it is spoon fed to them.

 

People talk about how great it is to have a lake at camp but all of our Scouts are too busy to recreate at camp. Swim? No time. Fish? No time. Watch the clouds? Forget it. Tramp about in the woods? Not in this lifetime.

 

If my son only wanted to work on one or two merit badges and spent the rest of the time walking in the woods, swimming, or paddling a canoe, I really wouldn't mind.

[sst3rd]

We have been attending the camp in the Council next to ours for 17 years. Blue Ridge Mountains Council camps are Camp Ottari and Camp Powhatan. These camps have more camps built into them. So many choices for programs of all level Scouts. As Scoutmaster, I feel it's my responsibility that each Scout take advantage of those merit badge programs and the camp's first year programs. The Staff is prepared and the programs meet the requirements. The Scouts would continue to come to these camps just for this advancement, however, every morning before breakfast and every evening after supper, these camps offer hikes, skills demonstrations, open all of the shooting ranges, swimming, canoeing, rowing, kayaking, volleyball, fishing, campfire programs, and yes, goofing off at the Trading Post. I make sure our Scouts get out to these events, and also make sure they relax as well. Summer camp is truly the highlight of our Troop's program year, and our Scouts look forward to it every year. It drives our program.

 

sst3rd