Troop has strayed far from actual BSA protocols, recommendations on how to help them to move back toward the correct methods?

[Twocubdad]

 

 

Asking of a Scout who is purported to hold the maturity and ability to handle himself as an Eagle Scout if his socks are on the right feet is now considered hazing? This is PRECISELY left-handed smoke shifter stuff. Actually, sending a new kid out looking for a smoke shifter can be hazing. The Eagle Scouts in our troop would have the chutzpah and sense of humor enough to throw it right back at them by telling them he never washes his right socks so he always knows to put the crunchy socks on the right foot. Or something equally silly. Even the introverts would just grin and shake their heads....

 

End of meeting -- Our whole friggin' meeting looks like that. It's called boy led. We call the end of the meeting "circle up" and it can take 10 or 15 minutes, depending on how much business we need to conduct. We invite the parents to join us in the circle, if they choose. We make announcements, present advancement, I give a SM minute an we close with the Scoutmasters' Benediction. But you're right every troop does it differently. If only the last 20 minutes of the meeting is chaotic, call it a win and go home.

 

Yeah, Scouting can be cliquish. Ever been to an Order of the Arrow meeting? Or, heaven forbid, the council training committee? Originally, patrols were to be built around groups of friends. Every few years I get a call from the town wanting a color guard for something or other. These calls usually come on Thursday for a Monday evening gig (the troop meets on Tuesday). I call the SPL and tell him to handle it. Chances are the color guard will be comprised of the SPL and the first three guys who say yes when he asks. This is also called boy led. Blasting an email to the entire troop, setting up some selection process and having a meeting or two is what adults do. Kids are down and dirty, cut to the chase.

 

Our Philmont crew had t-shirts which said, "1. Pain is fear leaving the body. 2. Tears are 98% estrogen. 3. Chicks dig scars." The moms were appalled. The dads smiled and nodded. The boys thought the were the coolest crew on the trail. This is how guys assert themselves, push limits and stretch their wings. Grab a copy of Mad magazine or watch the Three Stooges.

 

I don't see anything in your post I would call detrimental or even much of a violation of policy.. Silly? Immature? Yeah. Personally, I'd like to see a bit more seriousness of purpose in Eagle Boards. But as you say, every troop is different and has it's own personality. If this one isn't your cup of tea, find another.

 

But I'm betting the boys in your troop are having a blast and can't wait to go on the next campout.

 

[qwazse]

For your son's part, is he having fun?

 

Specifically "just insane" meetings can mean boys going off and getting into fights. Or, it could mean boys going off to try to accomplish a task, and being boys there's a good bit of herding cats to keep everyone on task.

 

In the first case, your son will not be having fun (unless he's a bully ... but even then probably not). In the second case your son will be laugh about all of the silliness that went on when they were trying to do the task.

 

Same applies to outings, patrol gatherings, etc ...

[scoutergipper]

The "hazing" should be reported to your District Executive.

 

Not too long ago, our Troop had an offer to perform an opening flag for a public meeting with a US Senator. I asked our SPL to choose Scouts he believed would best represent the Troop. I would never consider inviting all 30 of our Scouts to participate in something like that, or even to attend an event that only lasted about 10 minutes. I can't speak for your Troop, but one man's "clique" is another's "best Scouts we have."

[Stosh]

 

 

I have been holding back on this because I am trying not to always be the one in front (I do a lot of volunteering and I'm always "that guy"). We have other troops to consider. Just making sure before we yank our son elsewhere.

 

Thank you!

 

Don't yank your boy out of the troop!!! Do a mom/dad BOR with him and see what he would like to do. Scouting is his decision! Express your concerns, let him add his input and then give him permission to make the decision as to what he thinks best for him.

 

It just may be that he likes it where he is. That of course does not mean you need to continue. If other troops are out there looking for good leaders wanting to do it right, there's nothing in BSA policy that says you can't register as a leader in one troop and your son in another.

 

If he's unhappy with the troop, then the two of you (at his directive) can seek out a troop that will meet his needs.

 

Stosh

[CalicoPenn]

It sounds to me that officially, you're just a Dad. Committee Member is a registered position - there is no unregistered Dad on the Committee position.

 

As for the motto - do the boys realize that they'll be announcing to the world that they think they are stupid?

[SeattlePioneer]

How do the other Scouts react to these kinds of issues? If they don;t like it, perhaps they should elect a "reform" Senior Patrol Leader.

[walk in the woods]

Our Philmont crew had t-shirts which said, "1. Pain is fear leaving the body. 2. Tears are 98% estrogen. 3. Chicks dig scars."

These make me smile. Whenever any of my boys asked why they needed to learn to start fires or cook or tie knots my default answer was "chicks dig it."

[T2Eagle]

Originally posted by Twocubdad View Post

Our Philmont crew had t-shirts which said, "1. Pain is fear leaving the body. 2. Tears are 98% estrogen. 3. Chicks dig scars."

 

 

I like #2 the best because women are weak and cry a lot and that's a life lesson I want to make sure my son and all my scouts take to heart.

[perdidochas]

These make me smile. Whenever any of my boys asked why they needed to learn to start fires or cook or tie knots my default answer was "chicks dig it."

 

That's what I tell boys in my Cooking MB classes. I told them that most of the quality men I know cook for their family (a few exceptions, but most of us do), at least part of the time.

[imachristian13]

I think the OP is saying he is asked questions that do not pertain to his advancement' date=' [THAT DO NOT PERTAIN TO'] his views on the troop, [AND THAT DO NOT PERTAIN TO] areas he might improve." But maybe I'm the one misreading it.

 

BORs should be only what BORs should be. Read the GTA and if what you're doing is either more or less than that it's a disservice to the scout. This seems not only from these boards but from my own experience one of the weaker areas in the Advancement method of the program. I just looked at Scouting.org and cannot find any specific training for how to conduct them, but they are actually a great opportunity for the kind of e-training that can be done. Have a presenter explain exactly what their format and purpose should be. Explicitly say what they should not be. Have a mock demonstrations of what are good questions and what are bad questions, and then explain what should be done for the scout and for the troop, as a result of the information the committee gets as a result of a good BOR.

 

For the OP, my advice is read the Guide to Advancement (GTA), thoroughly, and then try to start a conversation in the troop and committee about how and why your BORs are conducted compared to the Guide. Don't start out telling people they're doing it wrong, start by asking "I read here that we should be doing this, but it looks like we're doing it this way instead, how come we do it differently?" It is a good bet that most of your committee members have never read the relevant parts of the GTA. It's possible that enough of them, if provided with the right information will be willing to make adjustment, if they can't ask yourself and your son if the troop is where you want to be given the way they operate. I am willing to try to bring change, but I am not going to spend years rolling a stone up hill. If change looks doable, great, if not there are probably people not too far away doing things better and you and your son can take advantage of the program that way.

 

 

 

You are correct. The "do not" was continued through the sentence. If they were asking for the boy's views in relationship to advancements, etc., that'd be totally different.

 

I can see the concepts you describe as a good avenue for moving forward within the troop...if possible.

[imachristian13]

<"1. At Boards of Review (non-Eagle)' date=' the candidate is hazed. The room is set as if it were an interrogation. He is challenged on nonsensical BSA rules (does he have the correct sock on the left or right foot). He is asked questions that do not pertain to his advancement, his views on the troop, or areas he might improve. Finally, a charade is put on where the Scout is asked to leave the room while the Board "discusses" his candidacy - we do no such thing. Then, he returns and is told that "if his book is signed, he has achieved the new rank - if not, he may request another Board in 2-3-4 weeks (whatever the leader makes up on the fly). [Nevermind that ASMs are always present']"

 

I am all for having some fun (Left-Handed Smoke Shifters anyone?) but this is just not what we are supposed to be about.

 

If they are asking more than one nonsensical question I can see this as hazing but asking one of these question maybe someone's way of trying to "lighten things up" I am with Sentinel947 that asking a scouts views of the troop or areas he might improve are questions that should be asked of a Scout.

Any board I have sat on has asked the Scout to leave the room so we could discuss things

How often are they turning down rank advancement? In the almost 20 years I have been a leader (and 3 years as a District Commissioner) I have only heard of a Scout being turned down for advancement 2 or 3 times. If it happening on a regular basis there is an issue.

 

2. Knowing full well that every Troop meeting can be set up in many fashions, ours has no structure and the entire 20 minutes of closing (where the Scoutmaster's "Minute" is supposed to be) is just insane.

 

If a Troop meeting looks like what I like to call "organized chaos" it is most likely boy-lead. To most adults a troop meeting look like they don't have structure but Scouts are learning to do things.

I agree that a Scoutmaster minute is lasting 20 mins is insane. Has anyone discussed this with the SM? - talk with your Unit Commissioner

 

3. Sometimes, no effort is made to communicate with the entire Troop (on Troop wide items of course). Last year, for example, the Troop was invited to assist with the local Flag Day ceremony. The SM and ASM only shared this with 3-4 Scouts who got to experience a nice event. The only way that the other 26 Scouts found out about it was when pictures showed up in the local paper. There's a clique-y attitude in the leadership. [For the record, I'm the type of person who would have been upset if we were invited and later found out that others weren't]

 

I have been in Troops like this. I just quietly looked around and found another Troop as they are never going to change.

It took me over 10 years to finally find a Troop that uses the Patrol Method and is boy-lead.

 

 

My "hazing" comment was more about the overall experience. The sock question - if it was solely being used to lighten the boy up - is fine on its own. However, when added into the entire scenario with the false possibility of not earning the rank, that's where I felt it was too much.

 

I do try very hard to differentiate between my views (as an adult) on how the meeting should be run and what is actually boy-led. There is a difference between having no plan of attack for the meeting at all or for a trip. We have two boys on the Autism Spectrum as well - they crave structure so it is stressful for them to be otherwise.

 

I have discussed it with the SM and ASMs (the long end to the meeting) - they disagree.

 

THANKS!

[imachristian13]

Unless you have more information than you're putting in your post' date=' I wouldn't worry as much about #2 and #3. I can't say much about #2 without knowing what is actually going on in the meeting. Number 3 could have a lot of innocent explanations. I receive calls on a regular basis asking for scouts to help with a flag ceremony --- more than we can fulfill. Most of the time I'll send a note to the troop because it takes asking a lot of people to get the four or so scouts needed to fulfill the request. But if someone asks for help with a color guard and the first four scouts I happen to ask then that's where I stop, that's not a snub, that's me being as efficient as I can fulfilling the request I receive.[/quote']

 

 

I do understand what you are saying about the efficiency part. I'm speaking of times where it would be appropriate for the full Troop to come - not the quick turnaround opportunities. The Flag Day event - for example - was a full troop invite but only a few were informed.

 

I am very much trying to walk that line between being oversensitive and attentive.

[imachristian13]

 

Asking of a Scout who is purported to hold the maturity and ability to handle himself as an Eagle Scout if his socks are on the right feet is now considered hazing? This is PRECISELY left-handed smoke shifter stuff. Actually, sending a new kid out looking for a smoke shifter can be hazing. The Eagle Scouts in our troop would have the chutzpah and sense of humor enough to throw it right back at them by telling them he never washes his right socks so he always knows to put the crunchy socks on the right foot. Or something equally silly. Even the introverts would just grin and shake their heads....

 

End of meeting -- Our whole friggin' meeting looks like that. It's called boy led. We call the end of the meeting "circle up" and it can take 10 or 15 minutes, depending on how much business we need to conduct. We invite the parents to join us in the circle, if they choose. We make announcements, present advancement, I give a SM minute an we close with the Scoutmasters' Benediction. But you're right every troop does it differently. If only the last 20 minutes of the meeting is chaotic, call it a win and go home.

 

Yeah, Scouting can be cliquish. Ever been to an Order of the Arrow meeting? Or, heaven forbid, the council training committee? Originally, patrols were to be built around groups of friends. Every few years I get a call from the town wanting a color guard for something or other. These calls usually come on Thursday for a Monday evening gig (the troop meets on Tuesday). I call the SPL and tell him to handle it. Chances are the color guard will be comprised of the SPL and the first three guys who say yes when he asks. This is also called boy led. Blasting an email to the entire troop, setting up some selection process and having a meeting or two is what adults do. Kids are down and dirty, cut to the chase.

 

Our Philmont crew had t-shirts which said, "1. Pain is fear leaving the body. 2. Tears are 98% estrogen. 3. Chicks dig scars." The moms were appalled. The dads smiled and nodded. The boys thought the were the coolest crew on the trail. This is how guys assert themselves, push limits and stretch their wings. Grab a copy of Mad magazine or watch the Three Stooges.

 

I don't see anything in your post I would call detrimental or even much of a violation of policy.. Silly? Immature? Yeah. Personally, I'd like to see a bit more seriousness of purpose in Eagle Boards. But as you say, every troop is different and has it's own personality. If this one isn't your cup of tea, find another.

 

But I'm betting the boys in your troop are having a blast and can't wait to go on the next campout.

 

 

Hi,

 

Although we are not speaking of the Eagle Scout BOR, I think you are overstepping the point of what I am saying. A little bit of fun and levity was not my concern. The overall wasted time and nonsensical nature of the BOR in this format is where I'm disappointed. I just completed the ASM basic training course at our Merit Badge College. They made it painfully clear that BORs are not supposed to be a place where a Scout should fear that they have not earned the rank but, rather, a place where the Troop can check-in with the Scout to see how they are truly progressing while affirming their achievement of the rank.

 

End of meeting...the 10-15 minutes that you call circle up is currently taking place...FOLLOWED BY the 20 minutes of comments from the entire adult leadership team. Comments on items that have already been (or should have been) covered earlier in the evening.

 

Never been to an OA meeting or CTC.

 

I do understand the difference between how adults do it and how boy-led can be done. This doesn't allow for two things, however. One, it denies that there are times that the whole troop has been invited (not just a small piece). Two, it completely rules out anyone with special needs - we have two Autistic boys who prefer "adult" methods when possible.

 

I would disagree with your Philmont shirts (at least #2 and #3) because I would find them to be disrespectful. However, that is not the point here - this particular "motto" implies stupidity of the boys in the troop. (I subscribed to Mad and watched the Stooges every Saturday by the way - doesn't mean I have to degrade women or boys who cry in order that they might stretch their wings).

 

Yes...the boys are having a good time. I'd like to see them have a better time!

[imachristian13]

For your son's part, is he having fun?

 

Specifically "just insane" meetings can mean boys going off and getting into fights. Or, it could mean boys going off to try to accomplish a task, and being boys there's a good bit of herding cats to keep everyone on task.

 

In the first case, your son will not be having fun (unless he's a bully ... but even then probably not). In the second case your son will be laugh about all of the silliness that went on when they were trying to do the task.

 

Same applies to outings, patrol gatherings, etc ...

 

 

We let our son take the lead on all of these issues. He is having some fun - enough to worry about staying or going from the troop. It's just that the troop is disorganized which causes some to feel like they are not making progress.

[imachristian13]

The "hazing" should be reported to your District Executive.

 

Not too long ago, our Troop had an offer to perform an opening flag for a public meeting with a US Senator. I asked our SPL to choose Scouts he believed would best represent the Troop. I would never consider inviting all 30 of our Scouts to participate in something like that, or even to attend an event that only lasted about 10 minutes. I can't speak for your Troop, but one man's "clique" is another's "best Scouts we have."

 

 

I am considering reporting to the DE.

 

As I think I've said elsewhere, when it's not appropriate to bring all of them, I'm cool with that. It's when it IS appropriate and they aren't invited that I take issue.

 

Thanks!