Scout Leader Ethics

[qwazse]

... By the way' date=' is there a chapter in the scout book on this? If so, I missed it...[/quote']

 

As boys get older, this becomes part of our discussion on ethics.

 

Not everything is handbooks or leader's guides.

 

Frankly, a lot of people think having cubs sit and watch a movie defeats the purpose of the program. So it's not on a lot of scouter's radar.

[Isabel Field]

Thanks guys for your support..I am glad that you understand that kipedia is not a reliable website.As for the poster that thought I should learn more about using wiki..The problem with my uncles history bring interfered with on wikipedia will not be allievated by learning how to cut and paste and edit wikipedia. Regardless of any skills I utilise some anonymous persons have been removing it as anyone can edit. This situation is happening to my family in many situations not merely scouting history. This is because of the work I do about large scale crime. My post is merely a way of reminding scouters that because Charles Smethurst Snow was my uncle and a scoutmaster..his history and achievements are being erased or altered from time to time...along with the achievements of a number of other family members.This is not fair to the history of scouts.

[Isabel Field]

Just because a movie is not yet being shown in the theatres does not mean that is is not available overseas on dvd and it may have been purchased there. I have always been of the impression that much of the warnings shown at the beginning of some films is more or less about making commercial profits from showing film..not from watching a movie with your mates.I also do not believe that much of the information surrounding the issue is as clear cut as it is sometimes suggested by others, even those in that industry and particularly by media

[perdidochas]

Just because a movie is not yet being shown in the theatres does not mean that is is not available overseas on dvd and it may have been purchased there. I have always been of the impression that much of the warnings shown at the beginning of some films is more or less about making commercial profits from showing film..not from watching a movie with your mates.I also do not believe that much of the information surrounding the issue is as clear cut as it is sometimes suggested by others' date=' even those in that industry and particularly by media[/quote']

 

Big Hero 6 has not been released to DVD/Blu ray yet. What you say is easy to say if you aren't part of the movie industry (I am not). People's livelihoods are harmed by pirating videos.

[Scouter915]

 

Big Hero 6 has not been released to DVD/Blu ray yet. What you say is easy to say if you aren't part of the movie industry (I am not). People's livelihoods are harmed by pirating videos.

 

Yes...and people are harmed by pirated and illegally downloading mp3 music. I know...I'm a musician and have dealt with this myself. I've probably lost somewhere near $50,000 + from illegal downloading of my songs...

 

So, this digital pirating thing hits home for me...

[dedkad]

 

Yes...and people are harmed by pirated and illegally downloading mp3 music. I know...I'm a musician and have dealt with this myself. I've probably lost somewhere near $50,000 + from illegal downloading of my songs...

 

So, this digital pirating thing hits home for me...

 

 

See, this is how you should present the issue to your CM.

[packsaddle]

@Isabel Field, I am fairly certain (from my cinema projection days, watching for the little cues to switch projectors and reels at the proper moment) that while the law inches a little closer toward Fair Use if the profit element is removed, that alone does not 'excuse' showing a film to a group. The motive is also important and if it is purely or mostly entertainment, then you stand on thin ice. The reasoning is that even if shown for 'free' to an audience, some of them who might have paid admission some other occasion, having already viewed it, may not pay that admission, thus causing harm to the artists and businesses.

I can stay within Fair Use guidelines because I employ these 'showings' as educational exercises and because not only do I not charge admission, also as part of the exercise these documentaries are then subjected to critical examination for their 'facts', fairness, etc. They are, essentially. evidence in a process attempting to learn the 'truth' of some matter.

And as such what I do remains within all of the guidelines for Fair Use (and the institution carefully looks over my shoulder to make sure).

But the concept does have a murky border and as someone else indicated, showing a video at a family gathering is tippytoeing toward that murky area. Not that any studio is actually going to bother to take legal action because someone showed 'The Right Stuff' to the extended family after Thanksgiving dinner. Inviting the neighborhood, on the other hand, is also inviting greater 'murkiness'.

 

As for your uncle, I am glad you're doing what you can to make this correction. However, I enjoy asking my students (who pride themselves on knowing all about important social and entertainment news) who that famous female singer was a couple of years ago who died unexpectedly and there was a huge outpouring of (Whitney Houston) public sorrow and sympathy?

Most of them respond with a blank stare (as if I'd just asked them for the equation for the wavelength of peak emission) and the word: 'Huh?'

Most of us, nearly all of us are going to be completely anonymous in 100 years. As it probably should be.

[Sidney Porter]

You don't need to be charging admission to get hit with violating home use provision. I had a friend who worked private eye they were hired by the cable company to look for establishments who were showing pay perview fights but only purchased the home use license (this was in the mid 90's technology may have changed to make this easier to track). He would drive around and walk into bars and see if the fight was on. It didn't matter that they were not advertising or charging admission to watch the fight. I don't remeber what the penalty was, it might of been the cable company slapping them with the higher bill and not making it a criminal charge.

[Torchwood]

Fair use does NOT apply to the viewing of an entire movie, or copying an entire book for classroom use. It would be fine for excerpts of either (having worked in the A/V field in higher ed and govt facilities, I have run into this issue many times). It also has nothing to do with any profit motives, so that is a strawman with regard to copyright law. Using a DVD that is released in a different region is a gray area. When I worked in higher ed, we did get pre-release DVDs from Swank and occasionally directly from the studios, so there are legal ways to get movies before their retail release, and even if Swank has a release date listed, they often have the film in-hand before that date, and if someone knows someone, things can happen early. I would ask the question, but do it nicely. Makes the crow taste less gamey.

[packsaddle]

Torchwood is right about this. I should add that I also pay big bucks (usually more than $500 per copy) for the added license to show to classes. And I spent a couple of $thousand purchasing dozens of copies of one textbook that I keep in the library reserve area for students to borrow at no cost.

My friends who run bars pay fees per screen and per performance, etc. and the industry STILL sends scouts out to check out the facilities, lol. Things haven't changed as much as you might think.

Murkiness is what happens when your family has rented the DVD for the evening and a neighbor just happens to visit for some other reason and you politely invite them to stay. They call their friends and some of them come over. The line has been crossed. No one will likely ever know about it but ethically, by failing to 'un-invite' those guests, the host family and the guests are all ethically challenged.

[JasonG172]

but I do and it's bothered me to some extent.

 

 

I understand Scouter915 and I agree it would bother me as well! Here is someone who is suppose to be upright and a just person showing something that has been stolen.

 

As a youth I use to download free music, I know better now!

[Rick_in_CA]

Thanks guys for your support..I am glad that you understand that kipedia is not a reliable website.As for the poster that thought I should learn more about using wiki..The problem with my uncles history bring interfered with on wikipedia will not be allievated by learning how to cut and paste and edit wikipedia. Regardless of any skills I utilise some anonymous persons have been removing it as anyone can edit. This situation is happening to my family in many situations not merely scouting history. This is because of the work I do about large scale crime. My post is merely a way of reminding scouters that because Charles Smethurst Snow was my uncle and a scoutmaster..his history and achievements are being erased or altered from time to time...along with the achievements of a number of other family members.This is not fair to the history of scouts.

 

Actually Wikipedia is in fact as reliable as the Encyclopedia Britannica on most things. You do have to be careful however on "hot" topics and pop culture stuff. As for you problem, Wikipedia has a process where articles can be protected from vandalism, but you have to get involved with the editing process. Each article has a talk page, which is where you should start.

[dScouter15]

Just to play devil's advocate... Lets imagine for a second you're on the other side of this situation. (This is purely hypothetical, I have no knowledge of this particular situation, I'm merely offering this as a "walk in the other guy's shoes" moment).

 

Maybe I'm a Scout leader who volunteered to help at this lock-in thing (presumably an overnight event?) So that means I give up a weekend night to supervise an undisclosed number of amped up boys on whose sugar high is competing with their fatigue. I need to come up with 12 hours of program to keep them entertained, figure out the logistics of reserving the facility, feeding the group, collecting permission slips, fielding phone calls and emails, etc etc etc. I have a bright idea that maybe if I can pop in a movie, that will cover a couple hours and maybe I can catch a few hours of sleep before driving home the following morning.

 

Now maybe I'm not a particularly technologically literate person. I don't know the difference between Hulu and Youtube and BitTorrent. But I know that I can get movies over the Internet, so I ask my 14 year old son if he can help me out. He says "yup" and an hour later I have a DVD in my hand. Now maybe I was remiss in my responsibilities as a parent and should have grilled the boy on how he came up with this DVD, but frankly I'm just happy the kid agreed to do something for me without coping an attitude, and oh boy Mrs. Jones is calling here AGAIN to make sure that we'll have gluten-free free-range vegan organic couscous as a late night snack because anything eating anything else makes little Johnny Jones' armpits itch. So I slip the DVD into my overflowing box of supplies for this event, and move on to more pressing matters (like how the council office still can't find the tour permit that I already mailed in twice, or my assistant leader suddenly has to fly to Tajikistan that weekend and I need to find more adult coverage on short notice, and now my wife just got home from the grocery store frantic because they were out of gluten-free couscous and do I think hummus would be close enough to keep Johnny Jones' armpits comfortable?).

 

So finally I get to the event, and we manage to pull it off successfully without any serious injury, just the usual "organized chaos" that is this "game with a purpose" that we all DO OUR BEST to deliver as best we can using only the gifts God gave us.

 

Now, say after all this, a armchair-lawyer comes up to me to lecture me on copyright law and to notify me that that I committed a felony punishable by a $30,000 fine and 6 years in federal prison and whatever else your fellow armchair lawyers think you can do to me... I'd start to wonder how 6 years in the pen would stack up to another 6 years volunteering with an organization where this is the kind of "thanks" I get... I mean, where were you when I was corrupting, I mean babysitting, I mean supervising YOUR kid at this event?

 

Yes, this is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But my point is quite serious. This is obviously an important issue to you. And I hear you that you won't go into this conversation "guns blazing," and I'm sure you think you'll be very calm and reasonable. But for the guy on the other side of the conversation, this could easily be a "death by a thousand papercuts" situation. You're worried about copyright law, Mrs. Jones is upset because no, hummus is NOT an acceptable substitute for couscous and what was I thinking and how did I screw up such simple instructions, and Mr. Smith showed up an hour late to pick up his kid and I'M TIRED AND I JUST WANT TO GO HOME. Not to mention the actual problems like the kid who I suspect might be a victim of neglect, the kid with anger issues whose at the edge of being kicked out of the pack because we just can't find a way to keep everyone safe with him around, etc etc etc.

 

Just take an extra second to decide if this is really an issue, in the great scheme of things.

[Scouter915]

Just to play devil's advocate... Lets imagine for a second you're on the other side of this situation. (This is purely hypothetical, I have no knowledge of this particular situation, I'm merely offering this as a "walk in the other guy's shoes" moment).

.

 

I thinks there would be an ignorance to not know that it's a violation of some sorts...If Big Hero 6 is playing at the local multiplex and charging $8 per ticket, $6 for popcorn, $4 for a large drink...Why would anyone think it's ok to play it for FREE at the local armory to a group of Cub Scouts...It should have raised a red flag for the cub master or any of the den leaders.

 

I know there are bigger problems in the world...even in our community. I certainly would not report this offense to the authorities or even threaten to do so. At most, I would "reveal" the possible ramifications of getting caught to the scout leaders. I don't want to make waves...I want to do whats best for my kid though. I'm not sure I'd be doing the right thing if I didn't at least say something...I don't want to be a bystander or sit on the sidelines while ethical judgment calls are being made wrongly. I'm not perfect either, but I would expect the same to me if I were doing something that's morally, ethically, or legally wrong.

 

Once again I am surprised by the "Devils's Advocate" posts about this. I'm not sure if it's a justification for some or the plain fact that some people will go to great lengths to convince themselves that "it's no big deal..." or "it's not that bad...". Shocking really...some people might need to check the magnet in their moral compass to make sure it's functioning properly...

 

[TAHAWK]

Agreeing that there are bigger crimes than stealing.

 

And still believing that there is a diplomatic way to handle this . . .

 

Imagine that the Scouts figure out that the Scouter stole the film so he could show it to them and that the Scouter felt it was not a big deal in the great scheme of things to steal the film - or that he feels stealing intellectual property is not REALLY stealing at all.

 

One copy is only a misdemeanor, not a felony. Sorta' like shoplifting a $100 worth of stuff from the Walmart.

 

 

What is the lesson for the Scouts?

 

 

 

The FBI has its point of view.

 

It’s an age-old crime: stealing.

But it’s not about picking a pocket or holding up a bank. It’s robbing people of their ideas, inventions, and creative expressionsâ€â€what’s called intellectual propertyâ€â€everything from trade secrets and proprietary products and parts to movies and music and software.

It’s a growing threatâ€â€especially with the rise of digital technologies and Internet file sharing networks. And much of the theft takes place overseas, where laws are often lax and enforcement more difficult. All told, intellectual property theft costs U.S. businesses billions of dollars a year and robs the nation of jobs and lost tax revenues.

Preventing intellectual property theft is a priority of the FBI’s criminal investigative program. We specifically focus on the theft of trade secrets and infringements on products that can impact consumers’ health and safety, such as counterfeit aircraft, car, and electronic parts. Key to our success is linking the considerable resources and efforts of the private sector with law enforcement partners on local, state, federal, and international levels.

 

According to the Department of Commerce, in 2010 “IP-intensive industriesâ€Â those most reliant on copyright, trademark and patent protectionâ€â€accounted for more than 27 million or more than one sixth of all jobs in the U.S., and more than one third of the U.S. gross domestic product.

 

The estimated value of IP theft in 2014 is approaching $1,000,000,000,000.00, nothing to the federal government budget but real money to some.