dScouter15 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Well, I'm not a lawyer, not even an armchair lawyer, so I won't attempt to get into a discussion of the relative severity of this alleged transgression from a legal perspective. I'll re-phrase my point: how do you want to be perceived by your fellow volunteers in this organization? And what are you really hoping to accomplish here? Folks, I'm telling ya... I know its popular on this forum to hypothesize about all the ways our fellow volunteers are criminals and everyone but you is liable to go to jail for something or another... And S915, maybe you would appreciate, after investing dozens of hours of time and stress and frustration into a volunteer activity, having someone come up to you and "diplomatically" let you know that you are in fact felon and draining billions of dollars from our national economy. But most volunteers, most people, really don't appreciate so much having others "adjust the magnet in their moral compass" or whatever. Those conversations are rarely helpful. Its likely that your peers' perception of you might shift into "oh, that's the gentleman or lady who thinks we're all going to jail for popping in the Finding Nemo DVD at our kids' sleepover." And the risk is that, gradually, over time, these volunteers start to get fed up with this, and move on from our troops, packs, and the BSA entirely. This might be one little thing to you, but to the guy you're going to lecture, it might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Think about it... I mean, from reading the forums here and discussions like this one, you'd be convinced that our prisons would be bursting at the seams with Scout leaders. But most of us realize that in fact is NOT the case, and continue on doing the best we can, applying our own common sense and potentially slightly inaccurate moral compass... unless of course someone comes along offering to do a better job and share some of the responsibility... You might want to be prepared to make that offer, since clearly SOMEONE will need to take over this leaders' responsibilities, unless you think he can run the pack/troop remotely during his 6 year stint in Attica? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Got your point dS15. Don't make trouble. No point in nit-picking over ethics, unless you are willing to contribute your own activity that taps the scouts' creativity and imagination. (BTW, couscous no substitute for hummus. Tahini, maybe, but not couscous.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter915 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Got your point dS15. Don't make trouble. No point in nit-picking over ethics, unless you are willing to contribute your own activity that taps the scouts' creativity and imagination. (BTW, couscous no substitute for hummus. Tahini, maybe, but not couscous.) I help out quite often. My facility (home and wooded acreage is used for hiking and campfires and such for the troop). I'm also an educator (teacher at the middle school) and donate a lot of my time to various social and sporting activities for the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter915 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Well, I'm not a lawyer, not even an armchair lawyer, so I won't attempt to get into a discussion of the relative severity of this alleged transgression from a legal perspective. I'll re-phrase my point: how do you want to be perceived by your fellow volunteers in this organization? And what are you really hoping to accomplish here? Adult volunteers should abide by the law. This is Cub Scouts...These parents are not volunteering for the local carnival. They are volunteering for an organization that is founded on principals of honesty. I personally don't care what the other volunteers think...As far as what I hope to accomplish...? What do you mean? You might be the type to let "small" crime slide, but not me...I hope to speak with the decision maker about this and gently let them know of my feelings. If all goes well, no harm will be done and hopefully something like this will not happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter915 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Next week the troops are going to Wal Mart to steal a piece of gum...(because it's really not that big of a deal right...?). There are worse things going on in the world right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 That some conduct is less bad that other bad conduct does not seem to be much of a standard for teaching values. "A Scout is trustworthy. A Scout only commits lesser crimes. We only steal a little." Is it really unfair or unreasonable to expect adults who agree to be models of ethic behavior for children to be willing to comply with the law. regarding stealing.? What would your Mom say? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Did I miss something along this tortured thread? Scouter915, have you asked that question yet? If so what did they say? If not, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daped01 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I watched the movie "Gone Girl" the other night on DVD. Prior to the movie starting, there was a copyright disclaimer that said illegal pirating of the DVD is punishable up to 5 years in prison and up to $100,000 fine if caught. Going a couple miles over the speed limit gets you a warning if caught. No fine, no prison time... Hardly the same... To me, there is no justification for this...especially in a scout setting. Nobody's perfect, but I'm hearing some downright scary stuff on here in regards to examples being set by scout leaders in regards to what is right and wrong and which laws should and can be ignored. By the way, is there a chapter in the scout book on this? If so, I missed it... TO ME it would be different if the guy was profiting off the work of others. Its highly unlikely the boys know anything "illegal" is happening. They are just there for a good time. in the end its about the boys and if the boys have fun that's the end goal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter915 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Below is the message that I sent one of the scout leaders and former pack leader. I am waiting for a reply. Hey -------. I have a question about the scout lock in a few weeks ago. I don't want to come across as being a jerk and I certainly do not want to make waves. It's about the movie that was shown (Big Hero 6) and how it was obtained given that it was still in theaters at the time...I'm not looking to get anyone in trouble or anything, but I want to know if the copy that was used for the showing was "illegally" used, burned, or downloaded from some kind of torrent site online. Like I said, I don't want to get anyone in trouble...If the movie was an illegal copy, I just want my concern heard that it might not be a good idea for future scout practices. I know the kids enjoyed it and the lock in was a great success so this is something that the kids don't need to know. If I'm completely wrong please accept my apologies. Maybe you can put my mind at rest on this...I was a victim of illegal downloads on LimeWire a few years ago and I lost an estimated $50,000 dollars before they were finally shut down so it's kinda a sore spot for me. Let me know your thoughts... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter915 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 I got a response. Scout leader says the movie was obtained by someone who completed a survey for a movie screening. Sounds questionable, but I didn't question it further...Scout leader also stated that he had concerns too, but put them aside when he saw the amount of kids that would not see the movie on account of movies being so expensive for low income families. I advised of being careful even in this circumstance...to do what is ethically right when given the opportunity. Scout leader agreed...said it won't go down like that again. Conversation was friendly, ended well...all is good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_in_CA Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Showing a pirated copy of a movie in current release is clearly wrong in my opinion (it is clearly theft); and presents a poor example to the scouts. Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. However some on this forum are taking a rather black and white view of legality. Not all things that are legal are moral, and not all things that are illegal are immoral. In general following the law is the moral thing to do (A Scout is Obedient), but not always. Many of the civil rights marches in the 60s were illegal, but were they immoral? The underground railroad smuggling slaves to freedom was illegal (was a serious crime in fact), but was clearly moral. Reporting an escaped slave was following the law, but was it the moral thing to do? As it has been pointed out, copyright law in this country is a bit of a mess, and violating it is surprisingly easy. For example, inviting some friends over to watch a DVD with me is a violation of the law. But lending them the DVD to watch in their home is not. So if the second case isn't immoral, why should the first be? If I purchase a DVD and watch it on my laptop on an airplane, I understand that is illegal (it is licensed for home use and I am watching it outside of my home), but is it immoral? Take jaywalking. There is a street near my home that I (and many people) often cross on foot. It is a street that has an odd curve in this location. The unmarked crosswalk is in a bad location as because of the curve, your sight lines (and those of the cars) are shortened. It is much safer to cross about 100 feet north as the site lines are better. However, crossing there is technically jaywalking, but is it immoral? Even the cop that lives in the neighborhood jaywalks on this street because it's safer. So what is the right thing to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_in_CA Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I got a response. Scout leader says the movie was obtained by someone who completed a survey for a movie screening. Sounds questionable, but I didn't question it further...Scout leader also stated that he had concerns too, but put them aside when he saw the amount of kids that would not see the movie on account of movies being so expensive for low income families. I advised of being careful even in this circumstance...to do what is ethically right when given the opportunity. Scout leader agreed...said it won't go down like that again. Conversation was friendly, ended well...all is good. Glad to hear that. It does look like you ended up with a good solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 TO ME it would be different if the guy was profiting off the work of others. Its highly unlikely the boys know anything "illegal" is happening. They are just there for a good time. in the end its about the boys and if the boys have fun that's the end goal! Ends justify the means...? That's the new moral compass? Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Very valid point, Rick. The point on "Obedient" seems to make it very black and white, but did the authors think of situations like the German racial laws? Dr. King got the Nobel Prize for leading a campaign of civil disobedience. However, he was willing to "do the time" and he wanted African Americans to be able to buy a sandwich like other customers, not take it without payment. For me, at least, that is a distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 ... but were they immoral? ... IMHO, unethical and immoral have two different meanings. I mean free-to-the-public entertainment is not an inalienable right. Basically, if someone does you a service, you pay for it. We are in this brave-new-world that puts a chain of robots than between us and the people who entertain us. Then we've created this sense that "little Johnny has to see this." If that's really true, let's have the state control the media and ensure its distribution at zero cost (except for our tax dollars). I waited for years to see Star Wars, because my parents were firm believers that movie budgets should be limited. Maybe I'm a victim of neglect. At the same time, Rick's right. We're in a real fancy glass house. Throwing stones till something breaks is not a great maintenance plan. Bravo, to S915 for making his concerns known. Hopefully these adults will be a great team for years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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