Eagle project proposal threshold for signing or not signing

[qwazse]

Thanks for all the input. I was wondering. I've seen some approved and at Eagle Boards of Review that have egregious spelling' date=' grammatical or punctuation mistakes in them. ... But I've also seen some from scouts that I later learned that was their level of ability for writing either through dyslexia or just slow learning. [/quote']

 

I think that's where getting to know the boy is important. Inferior writing (either penmanship or spelling errors or grammar or vague descriptions) comes from a lot of sources:

- grade level (if it's truly the young scout's work and Mom or Dad didn't intervene)

- learning disabilities

- schools that expect little of students

- English as a 2nd language

- carelessness

- naivete.

 

If a boy is college bound, or is likely to be a general contractor, we encourage him to write to that level. We usually try to interact with a boy while he is writing his proposal. The SM does so during the development phase, and our district advancement chair does so a little later.

 

Eagle Project has become a 22nd merit badge, requiring extensive counseling.

 

And, thanks to parental intervention, by the time it get's to the SM for sign-off, it looks as sharp as most federal grant applications that I've seen. When there are extenuating circumstances and a boy makes it through relatively unsupervised, there are inevitable "chinks".

 

Bottom line: can you understand what the boy is proposing to do? If so, he's met the requirement.

[andysmom]

A flaw in the process is that proposal writing is not a skill we teach out Scouts. But then we expect them to put together a detailed, written plan for their Eagle project. Prior to the 2011 policy changes 50 page proposals were not uncommon in our council. That was insane. A dad in our troop is a Six-Sigma instructor and would shake his head and laugh at the complexity of EP proposals. The 2011 changes to the process fixed a lot of that and I was a very early supporter of the new process. (Unfortunately they went too far in other areas, but that's a different thread.)

 

The key to an Eagle proposal is for the Scout to convince those approving it that he knows what he's doing and has a reasonable chance of success.

 

The answer to your question is coaching. Don't set up the process with the Scout where all you are doing is grading his paper. Make it one where you are working together for the Scout to learn a very important life skill. If that takes more than one or two sessions working together, so be it. But don't let it come to a point where the proposal is rejected. Instead, you just continue working through the process. Part of this is instilling in the Scout a sense of pride in what he is doing. As in everything, we need to be showing our Scouts what excellence looks like.

 

I agree.

With all due respect, one of the biggest parts about scouting is that we TEACH scouts many skills. As leaders, isn't our job to guide the scouts? I believe our committee is fairly rigorous when it comes to approving Eagle Scout projects. We want to make sure the scout has thought through the project and give his some things to think about. With the older Eagle Project Proposal I don't think I saw 1 scout get the proposal signed the first time through the committee (not saying that I agreed that they shouldnt have been signed, but our CC made that decision), the changed proposal is better. We want the scout to understand what is allowed in the "Guide to Safe Scouting" and he has thought about safety issues. We might suggest that the scout do some research about planting flowers in November or if the kind of paint he intends to use will hold up to winter weather. We remind him that he needs to call gas and power suppliers to be sure that it is safe to dig in an area. We don't manufacture problems make a scout do more work, we use our collective experience to help the scout succeed. We want him to think. If they don't take our suggestions, they learn, but they also learn by listening to others, and that is an important skill to learn. They also learn that just because they show up with a proposal that is filled out they dont get an automatic signature. We do point out spelling and grammar errors. We want the scout to be proud of his work, I don't see that as taking away from his project. Just because a scout has made it to the point in his career that he is ready to do an Eagle project does not mean that he knows everything about how to plan one.

[Stosh]

And where is the line between teaching and doing it for him? I see it crossed all the time. If one points out grammatical and spelling errors isn't that doing it for him? I'm convinced the boys relying on the adults to do it for them unless warned up front it isn't going to happen. If one spends all their time pointing out safety issues. and makes suggestions right and left, what's left for the boy to do? What research is necessary for his project is there which he doesn't need to do because the adults will cover for him? If the boy is not identifying and correcting his own mistakes, the adults are doing it for him.

 

Yes, I have had a boy doing a project that required prior Diggers' Hotline approval which he didn't have. He had to postpone his project for a week until that was done. It was a hiccup, not a failure on his part. I knew he didn't have it, but I'm sure that from now on, he'll think twice before putting a shovel into the ground. Yes, I could have saved a lot of people a lot of hassle, but then, I could have just done his project for him and everything would have been running smoothly all along. In this case, there was plenty of other things as part of his Plan B that kept everyone busy besides the digging on that first day. People learn more from their mistakes than they do if someone does it for them as a "teaching moment". In my book "Oops" is the greatest teaching moment there is.

 

When I have a new project the Mrs. wants me to do. The first thing I do is start asking people questions because I don't have a whole host of people standing around making sure my project is successful. I tell my scouts that I expect them to operate on an adult level when it comes to their project and surprisingly they always do.

 

Stosh

[fred johnson]

Thanks everyone.

 

Amazingly I'm not surprised at the variety and I'm okay with what jblake47 writes. I just wanted to know what level I should apply. What I'm hearing is I should effectively ... within the boundary of what is written in the Eagle Workbook and the Guide To Advancement ... establish my own level as it's the contribution I'll contribute. Even though it's unique, it's okay as scouts need to deal with a variety of people and I'm just one such variety.

[TAHAWK]

The fact that many "lines" are not black-and-white is part of the nature of Scouting work. We don't work to a rigid template when working with people and objectives like "good citizens."

 

We can but try.

[qwazse]

What I'm hearing is I should effectively ... ... establish my own level as it's the contribution I'll contribute. Even though it's unique' date=' it's okay as scouts need to deal with a variety of people and I'm just one such variety. [/quote']

 

I think there are points for creativity and style. IMHO, the bottom line: you are moving a boy from working with his patrol, to working with his PLC, to working with his adult leaders, to working with members of the community at large.

 

If that's happening, you must be doing something right.

[Stosh]

Qwarse has it right, the activity is not to do an activity for advancement, it's an activity that prepares a boy for things he will need to know to be a contributing adult in society. It is very rare that I see a Eagle Review Committee hassle an Eagle candidate over the minutia of their proposal. They, too, seem to look at the Big Picture.

 

The 9-Step Problem Solving technique used in Lean Manufacturing is less complicated that what some of the SM's make the Eagle project proposal out to be. I've seen them do it.

 

Stosh

[blw2]

I'm a cub scouter, so pardon if this is a dumb question......

but parallel to this, do you consider the project itself and how "significant it is?

I have seen what amounted to little more than a plant, in the ground, perhaps with a store bought bench beside it.... and a nice little plaque announcing that it was an Eagle project.

I have also seen a scout that collected money and hired a professional contractor to build a massive foot bridge. Just based on appearances, no physical construction was done by the scout or his troop mates.... but that's just an assumption. But maybe they worked under the professional.

Regardless, just seems like a big delta that I have seen, & in thinking towards my future, wondered when I would tell a boy to try again.

 

[fred johnson]

blw2 ... There is lots of guidance on the part you ask. You always consider significance. It has to be significant enough to provide opportunity to demonstrate leadership and significant enough to be of benefit.

 

Landscaping and benches are common. Though it's usually significant landscaping and often multiple hand built benches.

 

If you saw a plaque on a bench, you may have only seen part of the project. Perhaps another part was a drainage field or something much less visible.

 

The foot bridge one seems doubtful. Eagle projects are not fundraisers and can only raise funds sufficient to do their project. Raising funds to pay someone else to put in a bridge is noble, but sounds out of character for an eagle project. I'd have to learn more on that one. ... One dance I've seen is "a community group wants to put up a bridge" but needs help raising funds. So the eagle scout run some events for the community group. He's not raising funds as much as he's running events. He never touches the funds and is limited to the specific project work he's doing. ... I don't like this dance, but I've seen it a few times to get around the "fundraiser" rule.

 

[Stosh]

I discourage EP's that involve "fundraising". It could mean a boy loses out on his Eagle because he didn't raise enough money for his project in time before his 18th birthday. We had a thread on the forum similar to this a while back. Instead, I let the boy know there are plenty of options out there that don't involve having to raise money. I had one boy clean up landscape after a church addition was put on his church. Everything was provided all he needed to do was coordinate the scouts, the helpers from church and a neighborhood group that showed up to help. He also worked with the contractor who was to put in the sidewalks and such and had to coordinate his workers away from the wet cement, etc. The money for the project was already set aside by the church. So unless the money is there before the boy starts, I don't say no, but I do suggest alternatives.

 

One of the best EP's I had a scout do, was when I was the ASM for the troop. SM didn't think it a good idea for a project, the council review committee didn't think it a good project either, but I talked them into it, and yet it got a half page write up on the front page, second section of the local newspaper and again on the front page, second section of the state newspaper. It cost absolutely nothing to do other than gas to drive the boys around. He also won the State American Legion Scout of the Year award for it as well.

 

It doesn't have to be expensive, just good.

 

Stosh

[Rick_in_CA]

One of the best EP's I had a scout do, was when I was the ASM for the troop. SM didn't think it a good idea for a project, the council review committee didn't think it a good project either, but I talked them into it, and yet it got a half page write up on the front page, second section of the local newspaper and again on the front page, second section of the state newspaper. It cost absolutely nothing to do other than gas to drive the boys around. He also won the State American Legion Scout of the Year award for it as well.

 

It doesn't have to be expensive, just good.

 

Stosh

 

Sounds interesting. So what was the project?

 

[qwazse]

I'm a cub scouter' date=' so pardon if this is a dumb question...... but parallel to this, do you consider the project itself and how "significant it is? [/quote'] Definitely not a dumb question. But, you're thinking of significance in terms of mechanically complex. It could be in terms of making sure the homeless folks in town get a fresh supply of jackets this year. Or collecting used books for third-world libraries. (That last one is relevant to our community because it hosts a shipping warehouse for a major non-profit.) Basically, we're looking for a boy's ability to rally a handful of volunteers.