Recruiting Leaders

[Anita1216]

Our pack was short on Den Leaders this year so we have been using "shared leadership" to run den meetings. So for example when the Tigers signed up last fall each parent was told they would have to "help" by taking turns hosting den meetings. The Cubmaster planned and hosted the first den meeting to show parents how it was done. Then each family signed up to do 1 of the next 6 den meetings (6 boys in the den). Each parent was given the den meeting plan for the meeting they signed up for and told they were responsible for the entire meeting. The Cubmaster worked with each family to help them make sure the meetings were being planned and carried out. Now that each family has hosted at least one meeting the parents are planning meetings on their own. We have also identified the next den leader and most of the parents attend committee meetings and are helping with pack activities as well. The Wolf and Bear Den leaders have also adopted this method and have parents "helping" with some den meetings. The Webelos leader also got a couple of parents to "help" with certain activity pins, set up field trips and get "guest speakers" at their den and pack meetings.

 

It was a lot of work for the Cubmaster in the beginning, and I will admit not every meeting was a success. We lost a few kids because their parents didn't want to "help". But it also gave new parents time to see what the program is and how it is run before they made a huge commitment of time. And we have spread out the workload so people don't feel like they have to do everything themselves.

 

About 9 months ago this pack had 10 kids (mostly Webelos), 2 burned out den leaders and a group of parents that just wanted to do enough to get their kid to the next rank or the into the troop. Now we have more than 20 kids, a CM, a CC, 4 Den Leaders and a core group of parents that are all having fun in Cub Scouts.

 

 

Unfortunately we did try this and we had no success. Maybe if we got a new group of kids in addition to the current ones some of those parents would step forward but all these parents just look at us like we're crazy for even asking. These parents won't even come to Committee Meetings or anything. We're hoping that if we still don't have a leader but recruit more kids maybe this eventually will be a success but as of right now, the parents just aren't motivated enough.

[Anita1216]

In my observations groups always get by with the minumum amount of volunteers this isn't unique to scouting. I have been in packs of 50 and 150 and dens with 4 - 10. The 150 scout unit did not have a exceess of parents waiting to be tasked with something.

 

How big are the dens? You said that it is a thriving pack. My guess is that the each den is 6-10 scouts? My guess is if you say without a den leader the scouts cannot continue one of those parents will step up. If the den is on 3 or 4 it may be harder in my observation a 3 or 4 scout den is not as much fun for the boys and they and their parents are more likely to walk away.

 

 

There are 9 Webelos 2, 13 Webelos 1 (our group), 6 Bears, 6 Wolves, and 6 Tigers. It's a shame because they have fun when someone is running the meeting and I don't understand why a parent doesn't observe this and say something.. I know everyone is busy, trust me I know all about that, but to not step up and let this be taken away from your child... It's sad.

[Stosh]

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Well, that's an effective strategy to close down at least a third of the Cub Packs in our district. And since Cub packs often go through up and down cycles, probably another third would close in a few years as well.

 

 

The other third have a strong enough program and leaders to continue --- usually because they are in upper income and upper education level areas. So that formula would help make Scouting even more of an isolated, elite activity than it already is.

 

And the alternative is to keep dragging the dead horse along thinking that someday once it's had a chance it'll somehow get back up and you can ride again. If people want to keep a program by the skin of their teeth, then do so and quit complaining about nobody else helping. It might be important to you and your boy, but it's not important enough for the parents of the other boys to get involved. That leave that person doing it all themselves or closing up shop.

 

Yes we would all like to leave a legacy of our tenure in a scout unit, but seriously, if it's going down hill and no one really cares, then either decide to do the heavy lifting yourself or walk away.

 

And the conclusion that it would end up a program for the upper income, upper education level elite doesn't resonate. One can't buy the program, they have to do the program. It's like even if you have all the money in the world, if there's no food, you're going to starve to death along with everyone else, you can't eat money.

 

Stosh

[mashmaster]

I just got my replacement at our last camp out. He ended up being the other one staying up tending the fire with me. We just chatted about me moving on soon and what the job was. It was a natural easy conversation.

 

Good luck.

[Sidney Porter]

For my son's rec swim team each family is required to volunteer at a minimum of 2 meets for each swimmer (so if you have 2 swimmers you need to volunteer 4x). There is a sign-up and they track it. If you don't volunteer the kid cannot swim at the championship meet. Since they created to policy no one has failed to volunteer. We also don't have the panic if looking for timers right beore the meet starts.

 

The carrot could be they will not get rank advancement. I know some will say you can't add requirements for rank advancement.

[SeattlePioneer]

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As I said before, that's a fine system if you are willing to have 2/3rds of the Cub Packs fail.

 

I always work with Scout units on the edge of failure, myself.

 

I've been working with a Cub Pack that was down to a single Cub Scout eight years ago. This year we had 23 boys by the end of the year.

 

Despite that, it's always a struggle to find good leadership. I leade the Tiger Cub Den each year in order to 1) provide an example of an excellent den program and 2) identify one or more adults who are interested in being den leaders and capable of doing a good job.

 

Last year, I didn't have anyone willing and able to do that job until we did spring recruiting in April. Despite that, the new parents are doing a fine job as Wolf Den Leaders.

 

It's not easy, in my experience. Dumping the job on someone not interested in doing it or not able to do it is simply a formula for a failed den.

 

But new leadership can be searched for and cultivated. And recruiting enough boys makes it more likely that you will find someone willing and able to do the job.

 

 

[Stosh]

The system I spoke of is not intended to cause it to fold, but for everyone to have the opportunity to become aware of all the work necessary to run a successful program and it isn't going to happen if insufficient numbers of people don't step up to the plate. Kind of a reality check for the group.

 

Instead of, "We need someone to volunteer for something they know nothing about." It's, "Here's some of the things we think the boys would like to have in the program, is there something here you can help with?" If there isn't enough hands and help to go around, why is someone getting upset with it? It's just the reality of the situation. Any business that doesn't have enough customers to make a go of it, is going to close their doors.

 

I have seen this system work VERY well in a variety of different settings.

 

I had one banquet activity planned for an organization. Program chair had a program lined up. Cooks were all there ready to go, everything was all set to go and then someone said, "There are no table decorations!" Panic ensued. At 15 minutes before the start a car drove up, an army of adults/teens/kids descended on the tables and 5 minutes later of finely choreographed activity, everything looked great! That was the only activity that person did all year long and they didn't have to listen to constant begging for help for every other project/activity the group planned. She had her one thing she volunteered for, knew how much money she had to spend, and who the people where that were going to help her long before the activity was to be held....and when the time came she did it very well.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

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Actually, BSA recommends that unit leaders review a list of those availabole to fill a leadership position. The BEST person for that job is determined, and leaders make an appointment with that person to ask them to serve. The idea is to find the best people to lead the organization and to persuade them to serve.

 

 

My district is currently going through exactly that procedure to identify and fill vacant leadership procesdures.

 

 

[Stosh]

And this is why I believe the process is backwards... Unit leaders reviewing what THEY think other people can do for their program?? But this does not take into consideration what the other people WANT to do if anything for the program. Then they frustrate themselves to no end by "recruiting" them through persuasion, coercion, guilt, railroading, badgering, nagging and threats. Sounds like a win-win for everyone. Eventually they get on the scouter forum and complain about the parents not being interested/supportive.

 

Well I've dealt with people who do this process for many years and suggest they let the people decide for themselves if they want to help or not. If enough people don't come forward, either the existing leadership is going to need to step up their game or they need to cut back on the program. Please explain to me any other possibilities.

 

Then when the others do sign up, yes they may not be the best person for the job, but anyone is better than no one. If no one thinks a certain program is important by signing up, then why are they doing it?

 

Oh, Gee! No one signed up to help with the Blue/Gold! That means one of two things need to be done. All the existing leaders need to pick up the pace and do even more, increasing their chances to burn out, or two we don't have a Blue/Gold this year. Maybe if the boys did well on their popcorn sales they can afford a party consultant to come in and put one on for the pack.

 

Threads like these always pop up under different themes but they all are basically the same problem.

 

Year ago when I was pastor in my first parish, the education committee came to me and said they had no one to teach the second grade class. They told me they had contacted everyone and no one would do it. It's really not a good thing to lie to one's pastor. But this is the process that Seattle has suggested. What they wanted me to do was put the screws to their candidates. Well, instead, I made one phone call to an 85 year old lady who was at church every Sunday and asked her if she would be the second grade teacher. She asked, how many kids, and I told her two. She said great, one for each knee. End of discussion. By the way, the two kids had a great year.

 

You can blow me off all you want, but people who have tried this very seldom go back to the old ways. Some have, but only after I was no longer with their program so I don't know why.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

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Actually, this is pretty much exactl;y what BSA recommends: find the best person to do the job that needs to be done and make a concerted effort to effectively ask themn to do the job.

 

 

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Getting the wrong person to volunteer is a formula for a real failure. Finding the best person to do the job and getting them to do it is your best guarantee of success.

 

 

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No. Identify the best person to do the job and ask them to do it. The "best person" probably is not an existing leader, but someone who has already shown their ability and interest by doing another job and is ready for another leadership opportunity. For a Blue and Gold dinner, I'd probably start by finding a promising person or two to be the Blue and Gold Chair assistants, and then go to your prospexctive chair and tell them that you have an assistant or two to help them do the job.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

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Actually, this is pretty much exactl;y what BSA recommends: find the best person to do the job that needs to be done and make a concerted effort to effectively ask themn to do the job.

 

Nope, I did not find the best person to do the job, I found the ONLY person to do the job. Had she said no, there would have been no 2nd grade Sunday School that year and the two boys would have been merged into either a grade up or grade down. Kinda like combining the Wolves and Bears because a DL couldn't be found. It happens regardless of what "program" one is using to recruit leaders.

 

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Getting the wrong person to volunteer is a formula for a real failure. Finding the best person to do the job and getting them to do it is your best guarantee of success.

 

That is idealism, pie-in-the-sky. What happens when the best person is identified and all the begging, pleading, whining, cajoling, threatening, and doing all kinds of other things to embarrass oneself and they still say, "No, not interested!" How does that fit into the best guarantee of success scenario?

 

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No. Identify the best person to do the job and ask them to do it. The "best person" probably is not an existing leader, but someone who has already shown their ability and interest by doing another job and is ready for another leadership opportunity. For a Blue and Gold dinner, I'd probably start by finding a promising person or two to be the Blue and Gold Chair assistants, and then go to your prospexctive chair and tell them that you have an assistant or two to help them do the job.

 

 

Yep, you are still relying on everyone saying yes to the requests for help. The reason the thread is on this forum is because there are large numbers of very well qualified, exceptional leaders that simply say NO and that's the end of it. Now you settle for second best? and they say NO. Now you'll take anyone that's breathing and has a pulse? You've run out of possibilities and now you need to admit out of a total sense of frustration that the event is cancelled and you've failed.

 

Or, you can just ask up front and if anyone is interested in helping and if everyone says no, then cancel right away. Cutting to the chase really keeps the frustration level down and one doesn't have to go around annoying everyone in the process.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

<< What happens when the best person is identified and all the begging, pleading, whining, cajoling, threatening, and doing all kinds of other things to embarrass oneself and they still say, "No, not interested!" How does that fit into the best guarantee of success scenario?

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The BSA recommendation is to have your committee decide on the best person, to then make an appointment to see that person and for the committee to meet with that person and ask them to serve.

 

If they don;t agree, go on to your second choice.

 

Many people are flattered to be invited that way, and are a lot more willing to serve when asked. You have a chance to answer their questions and objections,

 

Frankly, we donlt usually follow that procedure in detail. Often the Committee Chair or Cubmaster and I will ask someone to fill a position at a Committeee meeting or after a Den or Pack meeting.

 

Since I'm the perpetual Tiger Cub Den Leader for our pack, I often have had a chance to become acquainted with parents and identify capable prospective leaders, and they have usually had a chance to become acquainted with Cub Scouts, the Cubmaster and myself before we ask them to take on a real job.

 

Usually we ask parents to help out in small ways first, which is easier for people to accept and you get a chance to see if people will do what they agree to do, and the quality of that performance.

 

Personally, I prefer to avoid ambushing parents by making demands enforced by the threat of cancelling program. That may need to be done, but it's a last resort.

 

That's what I do, anyway. And it's a good imitation of the methods recommended by BSA.

 

 

But if you have success with other methods, help yourself.

 

At our last Pack Committee meeting, I asked our Bear Den Leader if he would be willing to serve as the Webelos Den Leader next year. He agreed to do so, and asked about training and such. The existing Webelos Den Leader, who has done an outstanding job, has agreed to work with his replacement and help him understand and plan the program.

 

That's a big help, since there are substantial differenced between the Cub Scout and Weblos programs if they are done right.

 

I might add that in the eight years I've been working with this pack, ALL the Den Leaders and Cubmasters have been men. I suspect that one reason is that they have usually seen me as the Tiger Cub Den Leader, which I think encourages fathers and grandfather to participate more and to be more willing to serve as program leaders. My experience is that a lot of Moms, especially single Moms, value that adult male association for their Cub Scout.

 

If I had a Mother or Grandmother who was the best prospect to be a Den Leader, I'd be glad to ask them to serve. But it's been the men who have been the best prospects and have been willing to serve.

 

Moms tend to serve as Committee Chair or Committee Members, or in other positions.

[Stosh]

Seattle,

 

I do believe that both systems can work, it's just that my system requires far less effort and hassle, and produces the same results.

 

As far as "getting the best candidate", it's always a crap-shoot as to whether or not the vetting group does their job. I have found that a person is not going to sign up for a task without knowing themselves well enough to know they are going to be successful at it. Also they take a bit of time to think about it before the "sign on the dotted line" and make a commitment to the unit. There is no one there trying to talk them into anything, just the person, their conscience and a pen.

 

One of the side effects of this process is that I know that only what I get signed up for is what I am expected to do. The unit is not going to come around next month and whine for more help, only to come around the month after that and whine again.

 

Once a year and you're done. The whole year is planned and committed and all one need do is put together a little booklet of who's doing what and get it out to everyone in the unit.

 

Next year, take the same program, throw it out on the wall, maybe a combination of the "tried and true", something kinda "new and different", and toss in a couple of the "oldies but goodies" that didn't get enough signups last year. Maybe even a couple of blank sheets for someone from the parent group that has something they would like to do and it's not on the wall.

 

I just started a new troop within the last year. I use my system and I have a full compliment of adult leadership of people who said they wanted to help. I didn't need to even recruit. The programming, on the other hand with the signup sheets is not for the parents, but for the boys in that we are a boy-led program and they decide on the programming. It would be different for a Pack setting, of course, where the leadership comes from the adults.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

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Next year, take the same program, throw it out on the wall, maybe a combination of the "tried and true", something kinda "new and different", and toss in a couple of the "oldies but goodies" that didn't get enough signups last year. Maybe even a couple of blank sheets for someone from the parent group that has something they would like to do and it's not on the wall.

 

I just started a new troop within the last year. I use my system and I have a full compliment of adult leadership of people who said they wanted to help. I didn't need to even recruit. The programming, on the other hand with the signup sheets is not for the parents, but for the boys in that we are a boy-led program and they decide on the programming. It would be different for a Pack setting, of course, where the leadership comes from the adults.

 

Stosh>>

 

 

If it works for you, fine.

 

 

But I work in marginal to failing units --- typically about 1/3rd of those in our district. With another 1/3 that periodically will fail if they don't have some kind of support when they need it from time to time.

 

Out in the 'burbs, I hear reports that they pretty much just ring a bell and flocks of children and adults sign up for Scouts. I would suppose that your methods would be all that's needed in such circumstances.

 

But they aren't likely to work in weak or failing units where people are posting anguished cries for help in recruiting adult leaders. Those people need help in combing leaders out from among available parents, and persuading as many people as possible to help support the unit.

 

BSA puts out a brochure on recommended methods of recruiting Boy Scout and Cub Scout units, and those brochures are on line. I'll have to see if I can find them and post links to them.

[Sidney Porter]

I think that the sign up process can work for individual volunteer opportunities. Pick up the cake and supplies for blue and gold, provide transportation to a camp out etc. But this thread is about replacing den leaders and leadership in general. I think that it is better to have some vetting and asking people who you think would be a good fit. It is pretty common to have threads about den leaders that are in over their head or CC who don't let the CM do there job or CM who don't do their job. Every person does not have leadership skills but they could still have volunteer skills. I would rather have some decision in the leadership rather than just a piece of paper sign up.