EBOR no belief in a higher power

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The Boy Scout of America defines “duty to God†as: Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.

 

Doesn't the above mean that the youth MUST follow the religion of his parents? "Your family and religious leaders teach you about God...You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings". What if, say, he's become a Christian and his Jewish parents strongly object? He isn't following the wisdom of his parents' teachings.

 

[TAHAWK]

Like the Bible, BSA can be quoted on many sides of the issue. It has no vested interest in clarity.

 

In application, I have never heard of any Scout failing a B of R because he did not follow the religion of his parents. Have you? Has anyone? If not, surely you have better darts to throw. Or perhaps not?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well, I thought part of this was trying to figure out what the BSA means by whatever it's saying this week, and that part reads as if the youth has to follow the same religion as his parents.

 

Now of course that's a dumb interpretation, but the BSA also says you have to have some belief in a god/higher power yet admits Buddhists.

[TAHAWK]

Well, I thought part of this was trying to figure out what the BSA means by whatever it's saying this week, and that part reads as if the youth has to follow the same religion as his parents.

 

Now of course that's a dumb interpretation, but the BSA also says you have to have some belief in a god/higher power yet admits Buddhists.

 

 

Trying to figure out Revenant/ Duty to God based on the whole body of BSA statements, including the one about trees as a higher power, leads only to madness. The effort not to offend drives lack of clarity as a practice, if not a policy. That ought to be OK with those who want inclusiveness. If clarity is foolish as a practical matter, consistency is foolish, and you know about foolish consistency.

 

Not that I believe you have any genuine interest in understanding what BSA is about.

[qwazse]

Doesn't the above mean that the youth MUST follow the religion of his parents? "Your family and religious leaders teach you about God...You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings". What if' date=' say, he's become a Christian and his Jewish parents strongly object? He isn't following the wisdom of his parents' teachings.[/quote']

 

But he is following the teaching of his religious leaders. Maybe I've seen a skewed sample, but religious leaders of young converts strongly encourage them to be respectful to their parents, treating their wishes as though they were the voice of God to them.

 

A healthy progression involves youth initially taking their cues from their parents, and then as they mature, being able to describe a religious sensibility entirely their own.

 

The conflict you describe, however, doesn't have to involve some nominal conversion. A youth could be using his family's religion to pit him/herself against parents. I would chalk that up as irreverence, and would probably come down firmly against a scout until he reconciles his religious zeal with his disdain for his parents. (I'm certainly not waiting for National to put that in writing for me.)

[click23]

Any last advice, we are reconvening the EBOR tonight.

[Stosh]

How does one honestly get to an EBOR without knowing about the BSA standing on religion as part of it's program and expectations? Simply side-stepping it at the EBOR is a cop-out and equally questionable when it comes to preserving the integrity of the program.

 

Any boy that weekly professes "On my honor I promise to do my best to do my duty to GOD and my country...." and has no intention of honoring that oath is not Eagle material in my opinion. I suppose that they then can't be held accountable for "helping other people at all times" as well? Then when you see Eagle Scouts who haven't time to help others, don't complain. It's a problem of one's own creation.

 

For boys with this attitude the Eagle rank is nothing more than a dishonest way of getting ahead in the military and padding one's college application as well as their employment resumes.

 

Every bit of this "problem" revolves not around one's religion, but squarely on one's honesty.... and if one thinks about it long enough, aren't the two kinda related?

 

Stosh

[PbW]

http://national.deseretnews.com/article/449/boy-scouts-remove-god-from-oath-in-uk-welcome-atheists-to-the-ranks.html

 

If it's good enough for the scouts in the country that founded the movement we're based on, why isn't it good enough for us? It's time the BSA moved into this century and realized morality and being a good person does not stem from a base in religion.Look at some of the northern European counties, especially the Scandinavian ones, and you'll find counties with great standards of living and are largely secular.

 

Policy is policy and you have to judge this youth based on the requirements outlined. I don't advocate breaking the rules though I vehemently disagree with them. If he is deserving of the rank in all ways except this one trivial check box I do not envy being in your position and making this decision. Best of luck to you.

[qwazse]

Any last advice' date=' we are reconvening the EBOR tonight.[/quote']

 

Yeah.

Pray. Listen. Serve.

[Stosh]

Any last advice' date=' we are reconvening the EBOR tonight.[/quote']

 

The unfortunate part of this whole process is that not only is the integrity or lack thereof of the eagle applicant called into question, but also the integrity or lack thereof of the members of the EBOR this situation requires.

 

I have always found it difficult to deal with someone else's moral code as it tries to define mine. Unfortunately it means either I stick to my moral ground or justify it away to accommodate someone else's.

 

It's a bummer all the way around. Not everyone can walk away a winner under these circumstances. Maybe no one does. It's a major pitfall of moral issues gone awry.

 

Stosh

[scoutergipper]

Parts of this discussion remind me of people who move in close to an existing airport, and then complain about how noisy it is when the planes fly over.

 

Boy Scouts has a religious component. It also has a patriotism component in which the Pledge of Allegiance is frequently recited and the US Flag is honored. If you don't like those things, don't join. Once you do join, don't try and change these things just because you don't like them.

 

We spend entirely too much time in this country catering to and trying to satisfy tiny groups of people who add nothing to our society and do almost nothing but complain.

[click23]

Below is what the EBOR will be reviewing before we meet with the Scout.

---

The issue at hand tonight is whether the scout has completed Eagle Scout requirement #2 and membership requirement of subscribing to the Declaration of Religious Principle

 

Eagle Scout requirement #2

• Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life.
  
  • The 12th point of the Scout Law, a Scout is reverent. The Boy Scout of America defines reverent as:
    

“He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion.â€Â

1. A Scout must demonstrate that his lives by the “duty to God†point of the Scout Oath. The Boy Scout of America defines “duty to God†as:
   

“Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.â€Â

1. A Scout must demonstrate that his lives by a portion of the “morally straight†point of the Scout Oath. The Boy Scout of America defines “morally straight†as:
   

“To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.â€Â

 

Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle, taken from the Youth Application

“The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws and codes of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.â€Â

I think it is important to first remind ourselves of the Scout Law, especially the helpful, friendly, courteous, and kind points. We need to keep the board lighthearted feeling of the board that we always try to project, but at the same time keep in mind the seriousness of the issue at hand.

 

Taking into account the points of the Scout Law listed above, we should be as helpful to the Scout as possible. We all have taken the Scout Oath, which requires us to “help other people at all times.†I believe this should include us doing everything to help this Scout advance, within the policies of the BSA. I believe that we should allow the scout more time to examine and explore his beliefs if needed. Our personal beliefs must stay out of the conversation during the board, it is about the Scout and if he has completed the requirements and meets the membership standard.

 

While the policies of the BSA repeatedly refer to God, the BSA has left defining this to the scout and his family. The BSA has a history accepting faiths that do not have a God, such as Buddhism. Buddhism does not believe in a God, but is considered a religion or faith. The BSA recognizes its religious emblem, and Buddhist temples chartered 69 units in 2013. Other examples recognized by the BSA include Jainism, that believe there is no God, and Hinduism in which followers may or may not believe in a God. What I am trying to get at his that the BSA has a history of accepting Scouts that do not have a belief in a God per se, but have a religion or belief that they are faithful to, as long as they do not label themselves atheists.

 

[Stosh]

 

I have always found it difficult to deal with someone else's moral code as it tries to define mine. Unfortunately it means either I stick to my moral ground or justify it away to accommodate someone else's.

 

Stosh

 

What does BSA say and expect as part of membership in the organization? The boy has made it clear he has no belief in any god, not even under the principles of Buddhism and other non-god "religions".

 

The Devil's in the detail. How much more "evidence" is going to be necessary to be able to honor one's own commitment to the BSA movement?

 

Yes, it's difficult to be helpful, courteous, and kind to the boy, but then is one being obedience, brave and reverent to the BSA policy as well? Thus the conundrum.

 

But scoutergipper might just be right. How honest has the boy been up to this point knowing what the policy is and yet ignored it for his own personal gain? Maybe we ought to be discussing A Scout is Trustworthy instead of A Scout is Reverent.

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

I think Stosh's last comment taps into some of the suggestions we posted earlier.

 

Fact is, his world is not going to fall apart if he doesn't make Eagle. It's really better to go through life philosophically consistent than compromising here and there. If people are expecting something from you that you just can't give, it's better to leave their accolades behind.

[JoeBob]

Click, what is the Chartering Organization?

 

If the CO is a public school that avoids religion, you may have to consider letting him tip-toe past the EBOR, as he would be following their approach to 'Reverent'.

 

If the CO is a church, FAIL, as he is and has always been betraying their attempts to foster his development.