"Too Young To be Advancing..."

[LeCastor]

Hedgehog, thanks for the post. However, I never told you how I phrased my questions. Also, I am an advocate for this young Scout and want him to advance. For the record, I did ask him the very questions you suggest in your reply. As for the responses I desire, I'm not trying to be overly philosophical as much as attempting to have the Scout relate the Ideals with Advancement. It's all good, Hedgehog. I'm sorry if I offended you in some way.

[Hedgehog]

My apologies for misunderstanding. From your first post, I thought the question you asked was along the lines of "what are the core ideals necessary for the Star requirement?" If the questions were more directed to asking him what he learned regarding specific ideals (i.e. leadership, service, etc.), then you and I are on the same page.

 

The remainder of my response was related to what appeared to be your disappointment in how the scout responded and the scout's inability to go beyond listing the requirements. I just don't think that 12 year olds have it in them to do the analysis / thinking / relating you are asking of them. I've noticed this in my son as well as in other scouts -- the ability to extrapolate experiences to draw conclusions or generalizations just isn't well developed. Maybe you and others have had different experiences and I'm setting the bar too low.

 

I'm in agreement with you that age shouldn't matter (my son and a couple of his buddies are on track to be star by the end of the school year) in advancement. I feel that the boys should advance at their own pace and on their own initiative. If some go faster than others, that is fine. I also feel that all the boys should grow through scouting. To me, that is where the ideals and aims and methods of scouting matter the most. As long as all the boys are growing in their skills, knowledge and leadership, it doesn't matter if they are advancing as quickly as others.

 

Finally, I was in no way offended by your post and I hope you took no offense at mine.

[LeCastor]

Yes, Hedgehog, we're in the same page. . No offense taken.

[Twocubdad]

Scouting is to be experience, not completed. Experience takes time.

 

I believe it is my responsibility to help the Scouts I serve get the most out of the Scouting program. I hope we can all agree Scouts get more from the program the longer they remain in it. One of the beauties of the program is its breadth which allows boys to repeat activities at different ages and stages in their lives and learn learn and gain more each time. I hope our Scouts learn as much from their first year of summer camp as their seventh. In my opinion, tenure in the program is more important than awards earned.

 

My goal is for my Scouts to proudly age out of the program at 18 as active participants in the troop. Advancement plays a big part in this. The advancement program taps into boys need for accomplishment. The advancement program give them very tangible waypoints to measure their accomplishment. Boys who make Eagle at a very early age lose this important reason for remaining in the program. Sure, there are Hornaday awards and the new outdoor awards, but let's be realistic: Eagle Scout is what they are here for. They've heard Eagle since they were Tigers. Eagle Scout is the exemplar. When that goal is met, it is very difficult to set another which carries that same significance.

 

Sure, we all know boys who Eagle early and stay with the program, I was one. I earned Eagle at 13 1/2 and am still active. But I earned Eagle along with 8 of my buddies all at about the same age. Only two of us were still in the troop by the time we entered high school. This has been my experience as a youth and now after almost 20 years as a leader. Scouts who make Eagle early -- especially those who are highly focused on advancement -- don't tend to hang around much after Eagle. Advancement is an iconic part of the program. Knocking that leg out from under the stool remove a huge reason for being a Scout.

 

Now before you guys pounce, let me say this isn't an either/or program choice. Our options aren't limited to producing 11-year-old Eagles (as in the concurrent thread about the kid in CA) or standing on their necks until we think they are "old enough." I always say there is more Art to being as Scoutmaster than Science. Rarely do I ever have to tell a Scout to slow down and never do I purposely hold them up. I never want to hear 30 years from now that someone would have made Eagle but their Scoutmaster wouldn't let them. Instead I have a whole bunch of arrows in my quiver for expanding the program and helping them enjoy the side trails. Of course OA, Philmont, jamboree and other high adventures are the classic BSA solutions to keeping boys interested. But those are things a Scout may experience only once or twice in his Scouting career. More important is creating an environment and troop culture where older Scouts are welcome and want to keep coming. We must provide them meaningful leadership experiences, time alone with friends of his own age (they don't like to babysit any more than we do), a real sense they have meaningful control of the program, the feeling that their time in Scouting is well spent, activities they enjoy and -- ABSOLUTELY -- still having the prize of Eagle Scout in front of them.

 

We have been very fortunate to put together a troop program which accomplishes this. One of the highlights of my time as Scoutmaster was two summers ago taking 54 Scouts to summer camp including a group of six who were attend camp with the troop for the seventh year. Next week we will welcome a brand-new 18-year-old ASM into the troop -- the same night he will sit for his Eagle Board of Review. Some will decry him as a "death bed" Eagle, but I would describe him as a Scout who got the most out of every single day he was eligible to be a Boy Scout.

[qwazse]

2C, I think you're spot on.

 

I just want to point out that delaying Eagle doesn't necessarily mean the older scout will stick around. Son #2 is the last of his den to remain active. None made Eagle. A couple left the troop due to extenuating circumstances. The rest dropped at various ages between 12 and 17. None of those who dropped transferred to the crew (even though some of them had girlfriends who were venturers).

 

So, although wanting to make rank is a good reason to stick with the program, I don't see it as doing all that much for retention.

 

Rather, I think that boys who are confident that they will stick with the program aren't necessarily in a hurry to make rank!

[cbowe]

I keep reading these thread on scouts being too young to be Eagle. I just don't get it. Over the last few years I have started to write this response several times and told myself to wait, since I did not know my son would stick with scouts. Well I did know but it was not proved out yet.

My son is "one of those" Eagles. He finished his Eagle when he was 13 had his board a few days after he turned 14 (because the district made him wait because he was too young, so they pushed it off a month and a half after he turned in his application. He is now 17+ years old and still very active.

Since that point this "to young to be eagle" scout has:

- been SPL for 18 months (as well as a variety of other positions)

- earned the Hornady Badge and is ready to submit for the Silver Hornaday

- earned the National Outdoor Achievement award. (was #51)

- earned the Ad Altare Dei, Pope Pius XII, Duty to God, International Catholic Awareness (catholic religious awards )

- earned SCUBA, Standup Paddle boarding, Kayaking, Mile Swim, and Snorkeling and 50 Miler (afoot and afloat, several time over) awards

- earned Paul Bunyan, Firem’m chit, Tot’n chip, Cyber Chit, Physical Fitness, Internet Scout, Historic Trail awards

- earned Boy Scout Conservation Good Turn, Hometown USA, Leave No Trace, World Conservation, and Outdoor Ethics Awareness awards

- earned the 4 Nova awards and is working on his Bronze Supernova

- earned the Interpreter Strip for Spanish and Morse Code

- earned 127 merit badges (he wants to earn all of them, with the current number he will earn 139) only a handful of these were earned at summer camp. He has had over 80 different counselor

- earned 12 palms

- become and is currently certified in First Aid, AED, CPR, Wilderness First Aid, Leave No Trace Trainer, SCUBA- Open Water

- founded a Venturing Crew with his buddies – he is the President

- attended Philmont, Seabase, National Jamboree, and is going back to Philmont this summer (all using money he raised recycling cans - over 140,000 cans)

- slept in a tent more than 230 nights, hiked over a 1000 miles, cycled over 400 miles, spent more than 500 hours rowing, canoeing, kayaking, swimming and sailing

 

So here is a story for the haters

 

When my son went for his EBOR there was a scouter with an attitude like many of you have expressed. He did not like the idea of a young Eagle. I will paraphrase some of the exchange as told to me by my son and our troop rep who sat in the board.

 

Scouter (sarcastically): Don’t you have a life outside of scouts?

 

My son: Yeah, I play on the school baseball team and basketball team, I love to read, I am a straight A student and I play to many video games.

 

Scouter: (sarcastically and dismissively) "Not a type A personality much are you?"

 

Scouter Why the rush to get Eagle

 

My Son: I was running out of time.

 

Scouter: (exasperated) What do you mean, you are only 14!

 

My son: I wanted to earn Eagle before I turned 14 and being delayed a month and a half for no reason cost me a palm.

 

Scouter: Do you really think you earned all those Merit Badges?

 

My Son: Yes, and so do the 60 or so councilors who did them with me. (He had 70ish at this point)

 

This went on for more than 45 minutes. It was so bad that the troop rep that was sitting in the board almost intervened but decided my son was more than holding his own and bit his tongue.

 

I have sat in on 9 EBOR and not one of them lasted more than 20 minutes. Half of them were deathbed Eagles. These scouts had needed to stretch their “be active in the troop†over 3-4 years†to scrape together the 6 months needed to meet the Eagle requirement. When asked about what the troop did they could not answer. 3 of them elected to not have Courts of Honor since few scouts in the troop actually knew who they were.

 

So might I suggest we all tone down the sarcasm and dismissal. Sure, they may be some who got pushed by their parents. I did not need to push my son. His buddy who started in the troop a couple years before him was all the push he needed as they competed with each other to rank up and learn skills. They worked as a buddy pair to earn merit badges. His friend earned his Eagle at age 15. He aged out at 18, active to the end. He still comes to meetings when he is home from college.

 

When the board was over my son asked why they were so rude. I said not all people like scouts to earn their Eagles when they are younger. He though for a second and said thats silly. He went on to say well, I did get to see how a scout is not supposed to act tonight.

 

I read on here how we want scouts to read and respond to the conversations here to get their viewpoint. How heartbreaking it would be for one of these motivated kids (since they ARE kids) to read how they are just a "paper Eagle". These are the scouts who will be the future of the program, unless we turn them off that is.

[DadScouts]

LeCaster, sounds like you have a young Scout who struggled a little bit with his Star SMC with you and struggled a little bit with his BOR. But he "got it" and I'm not talking the checkbox requirements but he got the more important concepts that you were trying to make sure he understood. I see nothing wrong with a young Scout having a bit of trouble but overcoming it. He's learning. Better to be challenged than not since no one learns without being challenged. Will he get Eagle in a year? You think yes but that depends upon how much he grows and the bar is higher for Life and higher still for Eagle. Great for the young lad if he can cross those higher bars.

 

Our troop averages about 5 Eagles a year. Most are 17 with a few 18 by BOR time and a few at 16. Some leaders voice the "smell the roses" a little bit but none hold back Scouts. My son was the exception. A non-Cub who got Eagle at 15. Post Eagle Sr Patrol, SPL, JASM, Palms and then went on to staff Council training courses. He was an exception but a shining example "too young" is not an age determination but rather a maturity one and desire/motivation one.

 

Biggest issue I have with "young Eagles" isn't young Scouts pushing too fast but rather PARENTS pushing their sons. That causes problems since motivation, and often maturity, isn't there. Some of the best Scouts we ever have are SCOUT self-motivated ones who get Eagle in early age 16 range. In my opinion means anything, sounds like you're doing a great job with this Scout. Hopefully he will get the true meaning of Life and Eagle requirements and be a shining post-Eagle Scout.

[Torchwood]

cbowe-

 

You have an exceptional son, and he certainly deserves the Eagle pinned to his uniform. My son just turned 13, and at the end of January will be sitting for his Star BOR. I have never had to push him to work on anything Scouting related- it is all his drive. He is also a straight-A student and voracious reader, member of the school chorus, plays piano and is teaching himself to play guitar and ukelele, is the Troop Quartermaster, earned the Scoutstrong PALA Fitness Challenge Award, is almost finished with Ner Tamid (Jewish religious award), has volunteered at the local afterschool program as a CIT, works with an organization that provides birthday parties for kids in homeless shelters, plays D&D, and I could go on and on. He will likely earn his Eagle at 15. I hope that if he had to face someone of that ilk in his EBoR, he would remain just as calm and composed.