can someone be a Asst Scoutmaster & a unit commissioner for the same troop

[krcsr0178]

can someone be a Asst Scoutmaster & a unit commissioner for the same troop

 

[T2Eagle]

We have that so I think the answer is yes. Unit Commissioner is a District position so nothing poses a technical conflict during the chartering/rechartering process.

[scoutergipper]

Probably, but it seems counter-productive. Working as it should, the Unit Commissioner position is supposed to provide fresh eyes on any challenges the unit might be experiencing. Having input from an "outsider" can be very valuable.

[fred johnson]

Technically, yes. Unit registration = ASM. District registration = UC. No conflict.

 

Heck, I suspect this is how many districts make their performance numbers. ... Oh ! Your on the district committee and registered in a unit also. Let's call you a unit commissioner and then we get credits for unit commissioner visits.

 

The really big question is whether it is a good idea.

 

DOES IT MEET THE PURPOSE OF A UNIT COMMISSIONER ? ... Unit commissioners are supposed to be a fresh perspective and bringing in new and different experiences. Also, the UC is supposed to be a liaison between the district and the unit. .... So if you are already registered to the unit as an ASM, how do you add value? You can already attend round table, training and suggest new ideas. I'd rather leave the slot open so that the district assigns someone from the outside who can bring in a fresh ideas and view your troop from a different perspective.

 

DOES IT CREATE PROBLEMS ? ... It may depending on how it's handled. The issue is chain of command and conflict. UCs report to the district. ASMs are supposed to help the SM. Which hat is the person wearing now? Is the troop dirty laundry going to be automatically discussed at the district level. .... If the ASM is a UC who really does a UC role, it's no issue. UC is supposed to be a friendly grandfatherly type who offers sage advice and help be plugged into the district. ... BUT ... it can and I've seen it happen where the ASM uses the UC role to get more credibility and influence. This is when it's bad.

 

IS IT FAIR ? ... We complain when scouts double dip. Do we get try to get two recognition knots for effectively the same work? More credibility for the same work?

 

But I'm jaded anyway. I just have never seen the unit commissioner program work. Period. I've been the committee chair for three units for a total of about 19 years (overlapping 9 + 7 + 3). Before that, a den leader. And, an ASM and a MC for a time. I have never once had a UC visit. Not one physical visit. Not one phone call. Not one email.

 

For your unit ... choose your primary role. If nothing else, it will reduce the confusion.

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Having a troop leader as UC might impair the ability of the UC to be a SPY for the district and council.

 

On the other hand, it might be a great way for a unit to hae someone to SPY on the district and council...

 

Frankly, more units should have their Chartered Orgainzation reps attending District Committee meeting to keep an eye on what the district leaders are and are not doing.

[Hueymungus]

No. A Unit Commissioner should be registered within the Unit they serve.

[Eagle94-A1]

While it is possible, I would not recommend it. Sometimes folks need an "expert," i.e. someone not in the unit, to get advice from.

[SSScout]

OP: Why not? It just depends on your perspective. By being a ASM, perhaps your role as a UC will have more credibility. That is, if the Troop you work with welcomes constructive criticism, and it is given and accepted in a Scout Spirit .

[Wëlënakwsu]

While the BSA registration systems might not be programed to prevent dual positions,,, Commissioner Administration of Unit Service Manual Page 9 (amongst other BSA material) cites:

 

"... Commissioners must not be registered as unit leaders. Although some commissioners may be registered on a unit committee because they have a child in the unit or because of previous personal history in the unit, their principal Scouting obligation should be with commissioner responsibilities.

Please don’t assign unit commissioners to their own units or chartered organizations. A commissioner needs an objective view as an arm of the district and council. Avoid potential conflicts of interest..."

 

Despite the above, often a Scouter volunteers with a Unit and as a Commissioner. Some people can do multiple positions well, but the downside of being a Commissioner for your own Unit outweigh any benefit. Unfortunately the benefits for some include boosting ego, upping Journey to Excellence stats, etc.

[Wëlënakwsu]

While the BSA registration systems may not be programed to prevent dual positions,,, the Commissioner Administration of Unit Service Manual Page 9 (amongst other BSA material) cites:

 

"... Commissioners must not be registered as unit leaders. Although some commissioners may be registered on a unit committee because they have a child in the unit or because of previous personal history in the unit, their principal Scouting obligation should be with commissioner responsibilities.

Please don’t assign unit commissioners to their own units or chartered organizations. A commissioner needs an objective view as an arm of the district and council. Avoid potential conflicts of interest..."

 

Despite the above, often a Scouter volunteers with a Unit and as a Commissioner. Some people do multiple positions well, but the downside of being a Commissioner for your own Unit usually outweigh the benefits. Unfortunately the benefits in some circumstances involve ego, Journey to Excellence stats, etc..

[fred johnson]

Some people do multiple positions well' date=' but the downside of being a Commissioner for your own Unit usually outweigh the benefits. Unfortunately the benefits in some circumstances involve ego, Journey to Excellence stats, etc..[/size']

 

So so so so very true. Ego. JTE stats.

 

[fred johnson]

OP: Why not? It just depends on your perspective. By being a ASM' date=' perhaps your role as a UC will have more credibility. That is, if the Troop you work with welcomes constructive criticism, and it is given and accepted in a Scout Spirit . [/quote']

 

From what I've seen, it's usually the reverse. Someone is an ASM and feels they are not being taken seriously enough. So they get involved at the district level and then see the UC role as something that could give them more credibility in their own unit. At that point, the UC is not providing fresh expertise or an independent view point. As an ASM, they are already in the middle of all the issues. So being a unit leader in that unit invalidates their ability to work as a UC in that unit.

 

IMHO, there should be a separation span. After serving at the unit level, you should be a UC for a DIFFERENT UNIT for years before ever being a UC in the unit where you were a unit leader.

[CalicoPenn]

An Assistant Scoutmaster is a Unit Leader. They cannot also be Commissioners. A Committee Member is not a Unit Leader, which is why they can be Commissioners.

 

It is never wise for someone to be the Unit Commissioner for a unit they are also a member of the committee on. The best response a unit can have if that situation occurs is to allow the person the chance to resign from the committee or tell the District Commissioner that they can not serve the unit.

 

The best District Commissioners, if they're involved with a unit, has the Unit Commissioner for the unit reporting to an Assistant District Commissioner.

[fred johnson]

CalicoPenn ... Normally, I'd agree with you. But in this case, I think the the selective application of unit leader defeats the whole purpose of the UC program and does not match what BSA fairly clearly documents.

 

"I THINK" ... Your interpretatation matches how BSA defines "unit leader" on page 2 on the GTA, pdf page 4. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf And that is good. When working with the scouts, I lean in favor of the scouts if there is an interpretation that is fairly direct and legitimate.

 

But, in this case, I think we hit a recurring BSA literature problem. Even when BSA defines terms in one location, other locations have them used differently, with a variation or as just left over legacy slop. If BSA says "Unit Leader", it's fairly consistent that BSA means scoutmaster, cubmaster, etc. But when BSA UC literatures says "unit leaders" and then also talks about unit commissioners, "unit leaders" refers to ALL adult scouters registered with the unit. ...

 

For example, the UC literature says "Selecting, training, supporting, and encouraging unit leaders are the most important responsibilities of both the commissioner" ... I'm sure BSA is not intending to exclude the support and training of the committee chair, the treasurer, the advancement chair, the camping coord, etc etc.

 

If we move from the UC literature and go to the "Membership Committee Guidebook", page 18, BSA documents the committee as part of the unit leaders. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/co.../pdf/33080.pdf

 

Key point - "Unit leaders" needs to be read in context. Page 10/11 of http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34128.pdf Do not assign them to their own unit. Do not recruit them from their own unit. Commissioners may only be registered as unit commissioners. The only caveat is addressing legacy situations, but even BSA emphasizes that focus is on the UC role and little on the unit role.

 

It seems pretty clear, that BSA has left an escape for legacy situations. But the intention is to separate the UC from their own units. A fresh perspective. Avoiding conflicts of interest.

[Eagle94-A1]

IMHO, there should be a separation span. After serving at the unit level, you should be a UC for a DIFFERENT UNIT for years before ever being a UC in the unit where you were a unit leader.

 

 

Fred,

 

I not only agree with you, but would expand it some. Depending upon the unit's leadership you are asked to serve as commissioner for, if you served with the leadership in ANY (emphasis) unit level capacity, it may take years to serve with them as a UC.

 

You know the situation with me and my CO's troop when I was their acting UC. I was not a leader with that troop, but knew all of the current leadership via the CO's pack. Whenever I tried to help out or offer advice, I was told, "that's not how we do things in the troop," "Scouting has to change with the times," "you don't know what you are talking about," and the two - three hours of complaining about the lack of training in the DISTRICT (emphasis again) when I had to stay overnight with them because everyone left camp except the SM and 2 scouts.. That last one really broke the straw since A) the district offers SM Specific and IOLS once a year, B) council has a total of 9 opportunities each year for that training since each district is responsible for conducting their own course, and C) I specifically planned an IOLS course around THEIR troop calendar so that all of their leaders needing IOLS could get it. Only 1 showed up, the others excuse was "it's too cold to camp."