Scouts Carrying Religious Flags

[MikeS]

Hello,

 

A sort of quick question (I hope)...

 

We are a Troop sponsered by a RC church. One of my Scouts is having his Eagle CoH at the church.

 

The parish is sort of insistant that the Troop, in addition to the US flag and Troop flag, also carry in the flag of Vatican City (a/k/a Papal flag).

 

My take on it is that, since the BSA is a non-denominational organization, we should not be in a position where it appears as though we are endorsing one particular religion. Carrying in the flac of V/C could be construed as the BSA being a Catholic based organization or that we are endorsing RC specifically.

 

 

What is the general rule (indeed, if any) on this???

 

What is your take on the matter - should we process in with the V/C flag along with the US and Troop flags or not. I say not, but I may stand corrected.

 

Thanks!!

 

 

BTW - his Eagle CoH is this weekend, 30.NOV

[perdidochas]

What has been the culture of the area in terms of that?

 

That said, when my oldest was asked by the OA ceremony team about if we wanted the church flag to go in front with the troop and U.S. flag, he (and I ) were clueless. We are Catholic, and our troop (and the pack before it) are chartered by a Catholic Church, and we didn't know we had one.

 

I think it's fine. You are endorsing the church to some degree by meeting there.

[LeCastor]

Hey, Mike. I don't know of any official policy regarding this issue. However, I'm of the opinion that since your CO asked you to include a Papal flag--at their church--it would be a nice gesture. An Eagle CoH isn't necessarily a public display like a parade. If your Troop were to march in the Thanksgiving parade with a Papal flag I'm sure many would wonder 1) 'what is that flag?' or 2) 'are the Boy Scouts a Catholic organization?' OR they might not even notice and it'd be a non-issue.

 

How far are you willing to go at the risk of ticking off your CO?

[walk in the woods]

Will the attendees not know they are in a RC church if you don't carry the flag? . There's no harm here. The unit is sponsored by the church and the CoH is being held in their building. I'd not be making a mountain out of this mole hill.

[MikeS]

Hmmm..okay - I agree to a point. I know that when we had done this a few years back at Scout SUnday, we did get some flac for it by both "hardcore" parishioners as well as sone non-Catholic attendees.

 

That said, the KoC will also be there - might just have one of their guys carry up the V/C flag with us - that may be the work-around to keep everyone happy.

 

 

[skeptic]

Someone is always going to be offended, just to be offended. It is in their building and they are your CO; it should not even be an issue.

 

No one is asking the observers to change their beliefs. They are simply representing the Catholic Church.

[SSScout]

When it comes to "flag etiquette", it is understood that the only flag that is held before or above the US flag is the Chaplain's flag or "church pennant". I always wonder why a church would give the US flag a place of honor equal to the church flag. But then, why would we think God is concerned with flags? It's a RC church, with a RC flag, during (I assume) a RC sanctioned ceremony. Will the priest say a few words? Carry the church flag in with the other flags, place it to the flag's right most position on the podium.

[qwazse]

Not exactly what Ambrose intended when he told Monica "When in Rome ...", but the sentiment applies. I'm no Papist, but in this case would be happy to incorporate the VC flag in the troop procession.

 

BSA is non-sectarian, not non-denominational. There's a difference.

 

Your CO wants to be acknowledged in a very specific fashion. Acknowledgement is not endorsement. It's just a way of saying, "Thanks for providing us this house." Rest assured, other houses who have not asked for their pennant to be incorporated in anything a troop does have been less than hospitable.

 

Oh, and congratulations to this young man on his fine achievement!

[Horizon]

You are Chartered by a church - have one of your Scouts who is a member of the congregation carry the flag. For placement, I defer to those with better knowledge of flag etiquette.

 

We are reverent - we can celebrate our faith, while respecting the faith of others. That does not mean that we hide our faith in non-sectarian actions. Have a Catholic Scout carry the Vatican flag. It sounds great.

[CalicoPenn]

The big question - is the Scout receiving his Eagle Scout rank Catholic and does he attend this church? If not, talk to the Parish Priest and see if he still wants the flag to go up (he may change his mind if he learns the Scout is not Catholic).

 

But typically, there should be no problem with this -you are a unit sponsored by this church - they've not made an unreasonable request. If you were sponsored by the Lions Club, or the American Leagion, or the Jaycees, and they asked, as the sponsoring institution, to have their flag carried in, would it be an issue? It shouldn't be.

 

You won't be endorsing a religion, you'll be supporting your sponsor.

 

Unless the Eagle Scout is bothered by this, in which case I'd suggest a new location for his COH, bring in the flag of the church as well - with one of your uniformed Scouts (using a KOC member would send a message of disrespect I would think). The only real issue you have is the protocol. If it is truly the flag of the Vatican City, there is a specific protocol (see US Flag Code) as to how it is displayed with the US Flag as its considered a flag of another nation. Double check the flag code and make sure the boys understand the placement.

 

If it is a church flag (and not the Vatican flag), as SSScout suggests it might be, it still goes to the left of the US Flag though with a troop flag too, it could be placed to the right of the flag with the troop flag to the left of the flag and the US flag in the center, which would be the superior position in that case (that is if it's a church flag and not the Vatican flag - a church flag would be considered an "association" flag for code). Though in practice in some places that the church flag is put to the right (superior) to the US Flag (when they are the only two flags) during church services, this is actually incorrect to the code as the code only allows for a church pennant to be placed in a superior position to the US flag when church services are being held on a Naval ship at sea.

[Eagle94-A1]

Mike,

 

I saw a similar situation in HS with the JROTC unit. School wanted the school colors used during for certain events during the school year. So the color guard was expanded to 5 people instead of the usual 4. 2 rifle bearers, US Flag, USMC flag, and school flag.

 

And with my CS pack, we've had a situation where the pack flag's stand is MIA ( that's a different story for a different time). So we uses the CO's church flag in place of the pack flag. Hopefully the troop will eventually return our stand to the pack.

[st0ut717]

The Eagle CoH is not mandated to be at a specific place. It is a coice of eihter the scout or the Troop to hold it at your CO Church.

I concur with the others have the papal flag at the CoH. If the scout has an issue with it have it elsewhere.

[fred johnson]

BSA is non-sectarian / non-denominational. The troops can be of a specific denomination and show such a preference.

 

I'm Roman Catholic and a KofC. From what I've seen, we're glad to charter scout groups and be a friend to all scouts of any denomination or belief. IMHO, this sounds like the request from someone whose's trying to take things to the next step. Generally, RC is glad host scouts and I've never seen anything forced like this.

 

SUGGESTION - Ask them. Get clarification. I bet a friendly conversation will solve it.

 

Otherwise ... Scouts should be proud to carry the flag of their chartering organization ... even if they are not church members or of the same faith. That church supports their troop. Troop members should be grateful.

 

KEY POINT - If a troop member is going to use the charter org facilities, sponsorship and support, show pride and support for their charter org.

 

If you have issues with the charter org, then don't take the benefits of that charter org. It would be like a house guest staying for years, eating your food, sleeping in your beds and then expressing their disappointment as they leave.

[MattR]

When it comes to "flag etiquette"' date=' it is understood that the only flag that is held before or above the US flag is the Chaplain's flag or "church pennant".[/quote']

 

Not quite, SSScout. The part of the US code related to this is: No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy. There are a lot of conditions there.

 

So, have the COH on a naval ship, during a church service, with naval crew, and you're good to go.

 

I let the Eagle scout define what he wants at his COH. If he wants a church flag, that's fine. If this was a regular COH it would depend on what the makeup of the troop was and what the CO wanted.

[MikeS]

Thanks for the input everyone! We will be carrying in the V/C flag and observing proper ettiquette. The Scout in question is indeed RC and not only is a parishioner but also quite active with the parish (alter server, CCD instructor, etc.).

I just wasn't sure as I was always under the impression that, like with political signs, etc. we should not appear to be endorsing a particular belief, ect.

 

Just out of curiosity, what is the take on same situation with Scout Sunday? Same applies??