WEBELOS Character Connection Faith – Atheist work around?

[fred johnson]

 

Easy. I told my cub from a non-religious family that his parents were then the higher power and his spiritual guides. Worked for me, and actually got his dad a little more involved in the pack.

 

"FOR MYSELF" ... I could not do that. As much as I want to address the requirements directly, to tell the scout his parents are the "higher power" overly twists the meaning of the words. Luckily, there is no such wording in the requirements.

[st0ut717]

One thing that should be asked to a person in scouting that is risking losing a scout to this dogma.

Are you an atheist in that you believe in nothing beyond the physical existence or are you atheist because you don't believe in any religion.

 

These are not always the same.

 

If the answer to the second part of the question is positive then there are no issues with that scout.

 

[click23]

Below is the actual policies from the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/BSA_Charter_and_Bylaws.pdf

 

No matter how simple someone may break it down,"you only have to believe in a higher power", what is below is the official policy of the BSA.

 

ARTICLE IX. POLICIES AND DEFINITIONS

 

Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.†The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

...

Clause 4. Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.

[scoutldr]

In the words of Arnold Swartzenegger: "Pasta lasagna, baby!"

[NJCubScouter]

click23, that may be the official written policy, but there are some things in there that are not enforced by the BSA. What the BSA actually DOES enforce in this area is a little murky and it seems to depend on what press release or newspaper article or legal brief you choose to believe. But it does not appear that the BSA will actually kick someone out unless they actually deny the existence of some higher power. It's also interesting that while the official policy says some things that seem to require a belief in a particular "type" of God, when the BSA tells prospective new leaders about the Declaration of Religious Principle, they choose to leave that part out. I am referring to the section of the Adult Leader Application entitled "Excerpt From Declaration of Religious Principle", which says:

 

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership.

 

It's not quite the same, is it? The actual policy talks about God as the ruling and leading power in the Universe, who gives favors and blessings. But what is presented to leaders as a condition to getting "certificates of leadership" omits all that, and leaves God as a sort of passive recipient of an "obligation." And even the watered-down version on the application is not really enforced. Nobody (at least that I know of) is getting kicked out for not receiving "religious training" or not participating in "religious life," as long as they believe in (or at least, do not deny the existence of) a higher power.

 

Is a policy that isn't enforced really a policy?

[fred johnson]

... Is a policy that isn't enforced really a policy? ...

 

That's actually what has caused the issue. When people stand up and say they are not in adherence with the policy, they are asked to leave. And usually the whole reason people make a stink about it is for protest publicity. My church welcomes all, but if you want to protest their teachings publicly in their sanctuary, then you are asked to leave. Same for scouts, you can't be a scouter and protest what BSA teaches.

 

[fred johnson]

... Is a policy that isn't enforced really a policy? ...

 

It is the very policy enforcement that has been very visible. When people stand up and say they are not in adherence with the policy, they are asked to leave. And usually the whole reason people make a stink is to protest publicity. My church welcomes all, but if you want to protest their teachings publicly in their sanctuary, then you are asked to leave. Same for scouts, you can't be a scouter and protest what BSA teaches.

 

​"I interpret" your question (and please forgive the wording) as ... since BSA doesn't actively and preemptively ask about each members faith, how can BSA say they have a policy? My thought is we treat other leaders as mature and capable of making their own decisions. The members already made a statement that they are okay with BSA's policies when the signed the member application. Beyond that, BSA doesn't hold witch hunts and the lack of a witch hunt doesn't invalidate values, beliefs and policies.

 

Also, I think you are asking ... how is there any value in the policy? IMHO, it's a statement of values. We value people having faith very similarly to how we value them having physical fitness. Heck, you might be asked to leave if you went on TV all the time wearing a scout shirt and defending obesity while eating Big Mac's and french fries.

[BadenP]

The problem is that scout leaders let these boys slide through the program and do not address the problem until the boy is up for Eagle and then they are told by the ECOR that they are not eligible because they are atheists. IMHO the sooner this situation is dealt with in the boys scouting experience the better, otherwise we do a great disservice to the scout.

[DuctTape]

 

 

Also, I think you are asking ... how is there any value in the policy? IMHO, it's a statement of values. We value people having faith very similarly to how we value them having physical fitness. Heck, you might be asked to leave if you went on TV all the time wearing a scout shirt and defending obesity while eating Big Mac's and french fries.

 

 

I disagree. The BSA has no Declaration of Physical Fitness principle. Scouts and Scouters are not denied membership nor advancement based on physical fitness.There are many values promoted within scouting, I agree. But some have elevated the God aspect above all others. Now, that may be a testament to their faith, but it should not be dictated to others who may not share that belief no more than those who value physical fitness as the highest value should dictate that value should take priority.

[st0ut717]

H

That's actually what has caused the issue. When people stand up and say they are not in adherence with the policy' date=' they are asked to leave. And usually the whole reason people make a stink about it is for protest publicity. My church welcomes all, but if you want to protest their teachings publicly in their sanctuary, then you are asked to leave. Same for scouts, you can't be a scouter and protest what BSA teaches. [/quote'] Yes you disagree with what the BSA wants as long as you work within the rules of the bsa . This would include writing to congress and corporate sconces of the BSA.

[st0ut717]

Fred so a scout that isnt your churches religion isn't alowed to publicly express their religion?

[fred johnson]

... The BSA has no Declaration of Physical Fitness principle. Scouts and Scouters are not denied membership nor advancement based on physical fitness...

​I was drawing the ridiculous image of a BSA registered leader subverting the BSA teaching of physical fitness by publicly advocating for obesity on TV eating a big mac and fries in a scout uniform. I'd bet you would be asked to stop or leave. Declaration or not. It's a matter of subverting BSA and communicating a controversial position opposite to BSA

 

 

... This would include writing to congress and corporate sconces of the BSA. ...

 

If you disagree with the teachings or the values, I can respect that. We are a pluralistic society. I just believe it's unrealistic to expect to be a member and leader and represent BSA to others while at the same time contacting congress to advocate for laws being changed ... and ESPECIALLY if you contact BSA corporate sponsors.

 

 

Fred so a scout that isn't your churches religion isn't allowed to publicly express their religion?

 

Huh? I never said any such thing and your statement contradicts BSA statements and practices.

[NJCubScouter]

fred johnson,

 

I'm just getting back to your response to me of a couple of days ago. You are reading into my question things that are not there. In fact, I DO think the BSA has, and occasionally enforces, a "belief" requirement - but it is not quite the same as the official written BSA policy that click quoted earlier. It's just, "believe in a higher power." Maybe it's also, "And don't refuse to say the Scout Oath because it refers to God, and don't say you're an atheist."

 

The exact boundaries, of course, are not crystal clear. There have been many discussions on here about Buddhism, a subject I know little about, but the attitude of the BSA seems to be that it is "spiritual enough." And what if the "higher power" someone believes in is the "worldwide brotherhood of humankind"? Or just "nature"? No prayers, no worship, no organizations, no buildings, no donations, no missions, no clergy, no religious awards, just a belief in one or the other of those things - is that enough?

[packsaddle]

In a few minutes I'm going to display my reverence for a plate of spaghetti....I'm really hungry tonight.

[st0ut717]

If you disagree with the teachings or the values' date=' I can respect that. We are a pluralistic society. I just believe it's unrealistic to expect to be a member and leader and represent BSA to others while at the same time contacting congress to advocate for laws being changed ... and ESPECIALLY if you contact BSA corporate sponsors. [/quote'] Is that not working wishing the rules and laws as a citizen to change a rule or law you don't agree with?

Huh? I never said any such thing and your statement contradicts BSA statements and practices.

no your did not directly say that but the impression I get is that you would based on your comments.