Patrol Overnights

[Eagledad]

OK, in the context of vision, I fully agree. And in truth that is why I was angry with the rule when it was introduced. But I challenge you to find a hand full of scouts that we lost because of the rule. Any SM who would encourage and allow scouts to have those kinds of experiences will find ways to continue doing those experiences within the intent of the rule. I know this because that is how our troop works.

 

But let me also add, it’s not just about a culture of adults wanting to be more protective. In the name of keeping up with cultural progression that so many here believe is important, the BSA is also putting themselves in situations that can’t allow the independence many of us think is precious for the scouting program. While I have no trouble with allowing my 12 year old son and his patrol to go on a campout without adults, there is no way I would allow my 12 year old daughter to go on that same campout with male patrol mates. I know we don’t allow girls at this level of scouting, but there are a lot of adults that think that is the next step for the BSA.

 

Barry

[TAHAWK]

The exception in G2SS had to be read in light of the language in the required Local Tour Permit Application:

 

I don't keep all the old old forms, but this language appeared as far back as 1996 on BSA Form 34426:

Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all camping trips and tours.

 

While I do not have for forms for 1981-1995, this language, or something like it, was the basis of my council's requirement of adults being "present" on any outing requiring a Tour Permit, which was, according to BSA, any "Day trip," "Short-term camp," or "long-term camp."

 

Dislike it as you will and try to lawyer around it as you might, it's clear as to any campout, legends to the contrary notwithstanding.

 

I assumed that a patrol day hike was not a "trip" My theory was that it was better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

 

I would appreciate seeing any documentation to the contrary.

 

Ed: 1994 Form had the same language.

[LeCastor]

When I was still a "green" Scoutmaster, I wanted to put into practice that 300' idea on a particular camping trip where we had the run of an entire Scout reservation. I said to one of the other adults that it'd be sweet if we suggested having each Patrol go off in a different campsite. This Scouter's reply: "Oh, no! How would we know what they were up to? What if they got hurt?"

 

Truth is, these Scouts know what to do if another gets hurt. If I'm 1000' away, on the other end of camp, or out in the middle of the lake in a dang canoe, I expect the Scouts in my Troop to know what to do if their patrol mate "gets hurt". Problem now is that tow of my Scouts have type 1 diabetes and their parents are ultra vigilant about monitoring their glucose levels and making sure everything is ok...I know these young Scouts know how to monitor that stuff themselves...

[Stosh]

Some of us train young boys to be young men and then trust them with their learning. Others train them camping skills until they are young men and then wonder whether they learned anything along the way when it comes to actually growing up.

 

I have known SM's that wouldn't trust a 17 year old PL to take his patrol off out of sight of the adults, and then even when he turns 18 wouldn't trust him to watch the boys properly. So what does that tell you about the disservice this SM did to that boy?

 

At summer camp I had 12 year old boys wandering all over the place (as buddies of course) that at any given time I didn't know where they were. There were only 4 of them, but a Scout is Trustworthy, and until proven otherwise, I assume all my boys are following the Scout Law. Those that did break those Laws, found it was easier to maintain them rather than having to start all over from scratch.

 

If done correctly, the older boys will begin to sound like you when they are hanging around the new boys. I don't have a program for older boys mentoring younger boys, they just kinda do it naturally.

 

Stosh

[perdidochas]

Some of us train young boys to be young men and then trust them with their learning. Others train them camping skills until they are young men and then wonder whether they learned anything along the way when it comes to actually growing up.

 

I have known SM's that wouldn't trust a 17 year old PL to take his patrol off out of sight of the adults, and then even when he turns 18 wouldn't trust him to watch the boys properly. So what does that tell you about the disservice this SM did to that boy?

 

At summer camp I had 12 year old boys wandering all over the place (as buddies of course) that at any given time I didn't know where they were. There were only 4 of them, but a Scout is Trustworthy, and until proven otherwise, I assume all my boys are following the Scout Law. Those that did break those Laws, found it was easier to maintain them rather than having to start all over from scratch.

 

If done correctly, the older boys will begin to sound like you when they are hanging around the new boys. I don't have a program for older boys mentoring younger boys, they just kinda do it naturally.

 

Stosh

 

At our summer camp, we had 11 yr old boys wandering all over the place as buddies. We told them when they needed to be at our campsite, but other than that, it was up to them.

 

I think it's a matter of knowing the boys. We have one fairly inactive ASM. He shows up maybe once a month, and I can only recall him going on one campout since he's been with the troop. However, he has been to at least two training sessions at Philmont and has some good ideas, so the SM allows him to continue with us. If it were up to me, I'd tell him thank you,but the troop doesn't need you, but it's not up to me. Our scouts often play some kind of field game for about 30 minutes towards the end of our meeting. Normally, the ASMs stay in the Scout hut, and work with advancement for those who need it. On one of these occasions last year, this ASM told me that we need to be supervising the scouts outside while they are doing this. At the time, I went along with him, but in thinking about it, I realized that he didn't trust the boys. The thing is, there is nothing we could do as leaders watching them, that they weren't already doing. The older boys had set up the rules and the boundaries. I knew that if someone got hurt, the older boys would 1) take care of them and 2) get adults for backup. I trust the boys. I know what they can do, and I think they are pretty capable. He didn't, but that was because he didn't see the boys enough.

[Stosh]

 

At our summer camp, we had 11 yr old boys wandering all over the place as buddies. We told them when they needed to be at our campsite, but other than that, it was up to them.

 

I think it's a matter of knowing the boys. We have one fairly inactive ASM. He shows up maybe once a month, and I can only recall him going on one campout since he's been with the troop. However, he has been to at least two training sessions at Philmont and has some good ideas, so the SM allows him to continue with us. If it were up to me, I'd tell him thank you,but the troop doesn't need you, but it's not up to me. Our scouts often play some kind of field game for about 30 minutes towards the end of our meeting. Normally, the ASMs stay in the Scout hut, and work with advancement for those who need it. On one of these occasions last year, this ASM told me that we need to be supervising the scouts outside while they are doing this. At the time, I went along with him, but in thinking about it, I realized that he didn't trust the boys. The thing is, there is nothing we could do as leaders watching them, that they weren't already doing. The older boys had set up the rules and the boundaries. I knew that if someone got hurt, the older boys would 1) take care of them and 2) get adults for backup. I trust the boys. I know what they can do, and I think they are pretty capable. He didn't, but that was because he didn't see the boys enough.

 

Yep, trust your boys, they will surprise you if you don't interrupt them before they get a chance.

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

In the view of many councils' date=' and for many years before the amendment of the G2SS to make it unmistakable, Tour Permits required two deep adults "present." [/quote']

 

I certainly agree that the definition was being eroded at its fringes for some time. The scout handbook of the time echoed the language of the tour permits, not the G2SS. In this sense the G2SS waiver was the last loophole to be closed. But there were posts from that time on this forum that discussed how one would implement it.

 

Recognition of patrol camping is a superior idea, as would be recognition of a troop's use of the Patrol Method (AKA "Boy Scouting") -- if BSA would ever say what that is in any remotely measurable way..

 

Why such recognition has to replace the temporary insignia for Jamboree participation is not obvious to me. Could it replace the Arrow of Light instead? ^___^

 

Well, I guess the closest metric would any night where that 300' minimum distance is honored. But, when I'm backpacking with the boys this weekend, and our target valley is nary 100 yards wide, I'm not going to move my site so they can get "street cred" ! I never think of the "troop's use" of the patrol method, because we're a small troop and my challenge is youth buy-in. Although an SM deserves props for the required servant leadership to make it happen, when a patrol actually acts like one for 24 hours straight, credit should go to the boys.

 

Why replace the Jambo patch? IMHO it's just not the pinnacle scouting experience. It's inspiring (it inspired me to explore minimal impact camping, snorkeling, and satellite imagery) but it's a niche that attracts less than 3% of eligible membership. Likewise the HA bases ... not for every boy ... although very inspiring to some boys. I'm not discounting the importance of some boys coming back from these "big ticket" events and reshaping their troop as a result. That's important ... But, the vision every First Class scout should have is of them finding a time and a place and, with confidence in themselves, understanding of their mate's abilities, and complete trust of caring adults, taking their mates on an overnight outing.

 

At the end of the day it boils down to who I want my youth picking out of a crowd. I think I want them to be able to find the guy who can tell them about that "awesome site by this terrific stream that we found while patrolling" ...

[LeCastor]

It's interesting that WE as Scouters trust the Scouts in our care more than their own parents trust them.

[scoutergipper]

It's interesting that WE as Scouters trust the Scouts in our care more than their own parents trust them.

 

Well, it's a different world we live in. When I was in Scouts, everything except Summer Camp and Camporee was Patrol camping without any Adults. Neither of my parents ever went to a Troop meeting or a campout.

 

These days, I constantly have to ask my Troop's Adults to quit selling their own kids short. Most are ok - they aren't really involved. Some wouldn't trust their kid to lead anything as far as they can throw them, and a handful simply can't let their own kids - or other people's kids in some cases - alone. I've had parents wash dishes for their kid, parents follow their kid around Summer Camp every minute for a week.

[LeCastor]

 

I've had parents wash dishes for their kid, parents follow their kid around Summer Camp every minute for a week.

 

Yup, I've seen this...And it's a shame. Once on a campout a dad disappeared for a while (which was great) and later I saw his son with a Starbucks cup which had obviously come from his father's trip to town. I'm not kidding!

[MattR]

I just had a parent tell me he or his wife had to go on every campout to ensure their son had a good time, and for his safety. I said fine, but they were to stay away from his patrol the whole weekend. Last week it was mom's turn and she decided not to go.

 

I have about 60 scouts in my troop and I'd say four parents are high maintenance. Of those two help out a lot, so I can deal with them. The other two dads are ASMs. One might mellow out. That leaves me with one parent I just want to go away. So really, this isn't horrible.

[TAHAWK]

I just had a parent tell me he or his wife had to go on every campout to ensure their son had a good time, and for his safety. I said fine, but they were to stay away from his patrol the whole weekend. Last week it was mom's turn and she decided not to go.

 

I have about 60 scouts in my troop and I'd say four parents are high maintenance. Of those two help out a lot, so I can deal with them. The other two dads are ASMs. One might mellow out. That leaves me with one parent I just want to go away. So really, this isn't horrible.

 

 

Is your problem ASM trained? If so, have you discussed what he believes he was taught about the proper role of adults in Scouting? That might be informative for your training staff. The old requirement that the learner answer a series of questions about Scouting after the practical course was intended to se if the understood Scouting principles before hanging beads around their necks.

[MattR]

Yeah, he's trained. His problem is he doesn't listen to anything he doesn't want to hear. Kind of like my dog. And yes, there have been many many many discussions. I always get worried when I see a scout with hundreds of sticky notes in his scout handbook. But usually they go camping a lot so it's all good. This scout does not. Dad bribes him a considerable amount for each rank he gets, so Eagle is just a bunch of check boxes in the way. If it weren't such a thorn in my side it would be sad, so it's a sad thorn in my side. Nothing a beer can't fix.

[qwazse]

It's interesting that WE as Scouters trust the Scouts in our care more than their own parents trust them.

 

We're not talking about blind trust here. Scouts who've shown a lack of ambition in skill-building, a lack of integrity, behavioral issues, etc ... won't go far from the SM's steely-eyed glaze! That applies even if they're well over 18!

 

The boys and girls who camp independently have earned the trust of their parents. "Here's the keys to the car. The gear's in the garage. Take what you need. Fill up the tank when you get back." ... That kind of trust.

 

And, Barry, I've known scouts who, with their parent's permission, set up camp with their girlfriends. Why were they allowed? Because in that context the parents could justify a conversation about sexual boundaries... something that doesn't happen when Johny and Jane skip off to the mall, or drive-in, or either family's basement. So, if the demise of independent camping has anything to do with a coed vision for the organization, I think it is sorely misguided.

[qwazse]

... But usually they go camping a lot so it's all good. This scout does not. ...

 

This is one of those horse-to-water situations. The good thing is, with "pushed" advancement, you can count on more frequent scoutmaster conferences with the boy. And really, once the beer has worn off, the time you spend in dialogue with the scout is your only option. And, that time can include stories like "You know back in the day, there was this thing called a First Class journey. ... If you had a chance to do something like that, what would it be like? Where? How? What do you think it would take for your folks to let you go?"

 

Independent camping is definitely not likely for this boy. It's just a vision. But, it's a starting point for helping him to interact with his dad and the advancement method in a more balanced fashion.