Patrol Overnights

[Eagle94-A1]

Replace the Jambo patch with an award that represents the true pinnacle scouting experience: e.g., a constellation patch with star devices for patrol/crew overnights independent of adults.

 

Unfortunately BSA took away the ability of patrols to camp independently from adults a few years back.

[Sentinel947]

Replace the Jambo patch with an award that represents the true pinnacle scouting experience: e.g., a constellation patch with star devices for patrol/crew overnights independent of adults.

 

Unfortunately BSA took away the ability of patrols to camp independently from adults a few years back.

 

Can you cite that?

[walk in the woods]

 

 

Can you cite that?

 

From the online G2SS:

 

~~Patrol Activitiesâ€â€A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may participate in patrol activities with the permission of its Scoutmaster or Coach and parents/guardians. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities.

[Sentinel947]

I created a new thread out of the one about the uniforms. didn't want to derail that discussion.

 

My question is, even with the G2SS. Adult leadership on a trip was always required. "It must be present" What does that mean? What is "Camping Independently"? Is 300 feet camping independently of adults? Are the adults "present" if they are 300 feet away? 200? What's the magic numbers here?

[TAHAWK]

In the view of many councils, and for many years before the amendment of the G2SS to make it unmistakable, Tour Permits required two deep adults "present." So if the patrol campout needed a Tour Permit. adults were required as well. Such was the ruling in my council from at least 1981 forward. For the vast majority of patrols, few worthwhile campout opportunities existed without a Tour Permit. For one thing, public property for campouts by minors not escorted by adults is exceedingly rare.

 

The "distance" is in the minds of the people involved.

 

If you imagine that adults anywhere within scream range is awful, you probably believe that the adults cannot be far enough away to have it count as "independent" in any practical way. They must have stayed at home or gone home.

 

If the adults are trained to leave the Scouts totally alone unless real danger threatens, they can easy be "far enough" to have little impact on how the patrol functions. But only a minority, perhaps a small minority, are so trained.

 

BSA's message on separate patrol activities is inconsistent.

 

Recognition of patrol camping is a superior idea, as would be recognition of a troop's use of the Patrol Method (AKA "Boy Scouting") -- if BSA would ever say what that is in any remotely measurable way..

 

Why such recognition has to replace the temporary insignia for Jamboree participation is not obvious to me. Could it replace the Arrow of Light instead? ^___^

[Stosh]

When I was a scout they did have the independent patrol overnights for the boys with FC and above. But the patrols were not mixed and so they could do that. I never made it beyond 2nd class but I still did a lot of "patrol" camping without adults. It was a simple process back then. Just ask your parents and they would say yes, and all of us would pack up and head out on our own.

 

Stosh

 

Forgot to mention that in the fall these "outings" often included small game hunting.

 

The more I think about it the more I realize that what we did would never fly today. Kinda too bad.

 

Stosh

[Sentinel947]

Back in 2009 at NYLT they had us go outpost camp by patrol, and the staff and adults were like 2 miles away.

[qwazse]

... My question is' date=' even with the G2SS. Adult leadership on a trip was always required. ... [/quote']

 

Au contraire, my noble watchman. Up until a very few years ago, there was an explicit waiver in the G2SS for patrols sleeping out absent any adults with the approval of their SM.

 

Thus, by "independent" I mean a first class scout would take his boys anywhere within their abilities, and any adults would stay home -- or drop in for a site visit (again depending on what the SM knew about the character of the boys in that PL).

 

The operational rule was that the PL or SPL would complete the tour plan then submit it for final approval to the SM. A younger patrol might camp on a nearby farmer's property (approvals received in advance). An older patrol might organize a drive to some state park or national monument (proof of registration/understanding of regulations provided). They were expected to comport themselves as good citizens for the duration. Why else would you require a 1st class scout to know the Bill of Rights, if not so they could respectfully address any officers of the law making inquiry as to their exploits?

[qwazse]

... a constellation patch with star devices for patrol/crew overnights independent of adults. ...

 

Unfortunately BSA took away the ability of patrols to camp independently from adults a few years back.

 

E94, did I say anything about well-planned overnights needing to be sanctioned by any national organization?

[Sentinel947]

 

Au contraire, my noble watchman. Up until a very few years ago, there was an explicit waiver in the G2SS for patrols sleeping out absent any adults with the approval of their SM.

 

Thus, by "independent" I mean a first class scout would take his boys anywhere within their abilities, and any adults would stay home -- or drop in for a site visit (again depending on what the SM knew about the character of the boys in that PL).

 

The operational rule was that the PL or SPL would complete the tour plan then submit it for final approval to the SM. A younger patrol might camp on a nearby farmer's property (approvals received in advance). An older patrol might organize a drive to some state park or national monument (proof of registration/understanding of regulations provided). They were expected to comport themselves as good citizens for the duration. Why else would you require a 1st class scout to know the Bill of Rights, if not so they could respectfully address any officers of the law making inquiry as to their exploits?

 

Ok. Part of that is not just the BSA, but also society and how it views teenagers as needing to be protected and coddled.

[LeCastor]

I love the idea of allowing a patrol to camp out on their own without adult intervention. However, I feel like we're probably past the point of no return within BSA guidelines, as mentioned. The 1st Class hike would be a glorious thing to bring back, wouldn't it?

 

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/1stclasshike.pdf

[Stosh]

I love the idea of allowing a patrol to camp out on their own without adult intervention. However, I feel like we're probably past the point of no return within BSA guidelines, as mentioned. The 1st Class hike would be a glorious thing to bring back, wouldn't it?

 

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/1stclasshike.pdf

 

I think they do things differently in Canada, they aren't as uptight as Americans.

 

I do know that much of the early scouts pretty much function independently of the SM's except for testing and rank advancement. Now a patrol can't even gather without an adult present. That's kinda not what it's all about.

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

Ok. Part of that is not just the BSA' date=' but also society and how it views teenagers as needing to be protected and coddled.[/quote']

 

What part of society? I have boys who balance paying their dues against filling up the tank and driving to the family cabin or farm for the weekend. There's no age restriction on Western PA's best parks and trails, and older teens gladly take advantage of it. Other kids are groupies and follow their favorite band, camping where convenient to save dimes. When they ask me, I help them refine their plans to minimize cost and get a decent meal or two and maybe map out a sweet spot for shelter along the way.

 

Real patrolling happens ... the only issue is if able (and sometimes not-so-able) youth will leave the BSA to do it.

[Eagledad]

Adults only need to be present for "overnight" activities. And it really isn't hard to give scouts their independence on overnight activities and stay within the intent of the rule. Has anyone tried the 300 foot separation? It might as well be three miles as far as most scouts care.

 

While I hate the rule, it's more because it just shows where our culture is changing. It didn't interrupt very many troop programs.

 

Barry

[qwazse]

Adults only need to be present for overnight activities. And it really isn't hard to give scouts their independence on overnight activities and stay within the intent of the rule. Has anyone tried the 300 foot separation? It might was well be three miles as far as most scouts care. While I hate the rule' date=' it's more because it just shows where our culture is changing. I don't think it has interupted [u']very many [/u]troop programs. Barry

 

Barry, although 300' absolutely terrorizes my SM (we're all learners in one way or another ), the boys are generally quite comfortable with it.

 

But I underlined two key phrases. This is not about gross percentages. The patrol who routinely throws together a solid plan that any SM or advisor would feel comfortable with is a rare animal, and usually has a couple of 18-year-olds in tow. It is about the type of scout we are losing. Say there's a 16 year old out there who's calling the farmer down the road, getting permission, explaining to his buddies and their parents the location, return time, and emergency contact of their overnight, earning the trust of all adults involved ... HOW WOULD YOU NOT WANT THAT BOY INSPIRING THE BOYS IN YOUR TROOP TO DO THE SAME?

 

This is not a numbers game. This is about vision.