Humanist is now a religion.

[Sentinel947]

Honestly, a lot of my frustration comes from the consistent reminder of how I'm not good enough of a person to be involved in scouting because I do not believe in god(s) by those that want to push for the traditional foundation BP laid out. I have to sit quiet while knowing that I should not be part of an organization that did so much to raise me into the man I am today. Not because it taught me religion but for all the other life lessons.

 

>> I think Scouting is a wider, more basic philosophy than any religions or secular principles. It includes and complements almost anybody's values.

 

And it's these lessons of citizenship, leadership, courage, responsibility, thriftiness, helpfulness, adventure, resourcefulness, outdoorsmanship, and respectfulness that I want to help instill in my sons. Can I do that outside of scouting, yes. But this program offers such a great framework for it. But national says I can not participate because I can not check the "theist" box... and that chaps my hide.

 

I did not need to go to the extent that I did in bringing up the question of morality or quoting Hitchens as that really served no purpose. That is more a reaction to BP's words that I've never been able to say aloud before in a public setting (as it were). It was not my intention to directly insult anyone... but often it's a natural byproduct of an atheist talking to theists.

 

And theists talking to Atheists as well. When people's thought processes are so different, it's easy to say things that are insulting without realizing it.

 

Like I said, I love and respect BP but I don't agree with him on everything. I think like our brothers and sisters across the pond the BSA will eventually move to a more neutral policy. Not soon enough for you and your sons, but definitely within our lifetimes. I cringe when people bring up that BP quote. Given what I've studied about the man, I don't think he'd approve how it's used as a weapon of the religious vs non believers in Scouting.

 

I don't have advise for your situation. I obviously haven't walked in your shoes as a parent, or an atheist in Scouting. We just have to keep pushing and educating people. Just like the gay issue. Change will come.

 

Sentinel947

 

 

[Rick_in_CA]

If he's a Humanist that believes that there is no supreme being then he is not allowed to be a member. Nothing's changed. If he wants to lie about it then it's between him and his ...whatever...

 

Where does it say that? I can't find any requirement for a belief in a supreme being (or even a "belief in a higher power").

 

The BSA requires a "belief in God" but leaves the definition of that up to the individual. If the individual defines a "belief in God" as "I like ice cream", they are fine. As long as the person doesn't self identify as an atheist or agnostic the BSA is fine with them (it's the label, not the underlying belief structure that the BSA has a problem with).

 

From the Guide to Advancement:

The Boy Scouts of America does not define what constitutes belief in God or practice of religion. Neither does the BSA require membership in a religious organization or association for membership in the movement.

[SeattlePioneer]

I was once questioned by my District Chair about my religious beliefs.

 

 

"Do you believe in God"

 

"Yes"

 

"Do you belong to a church?"

 

"No."

 

"Would you like to belong to my church?"

 

"No"

 

That's really my only experience in having my religious bona fides examined for Scouting fitness.

 

 

Absent someone volunteering that they are an atheist, I would personally avoid making such inquiries myself.

[AZMike]

Honestly' date=' a lot of my frustration comes from the consistent reminder of how I'm not good enough of a person to be involved in scouting because I do not believe in god(s) by those that want to push for the traditional foundation BP laid out.[/quote']

 

I like girls and think they are pretty great people. But I don't think they should be Boy Scouts. I don't think you're "not good enough of a person," you just don't fit the membership standards as established, anymore than a girl does. That's not a slam on you.

 

[PbW]

 

And theists talking to Atheists as well. When people's thought processes are so different, it's easy to say things that are insulting without realizing it.

 

Like I said, I love and respect BP but I don't agree with him on everything. I think like our brothers and sisters across the pond the BSA will eventually move to a more neutral policy. Not soon enough for you and your sons, but definitely within our lifetimes. I cringe when people bring up that BP quote. Given what I've studied about the man, I don't think he'd approve how it's used as a weapon of the religious vs non believers in Scouting.

 

I don't have advise for your situation. I obviously haven't walked in your shoes as a parent, or an atheist in Scouting. We just have to keep pushing and educating people. Just like the gay issue. Change will come.

 

Sentinel947

 

 

 

Thank you for your understanding. It's a very difficult subject for me, as you can guess. When my son started Tigers a few years ago I had no intention of taking a leadership position because of this. I just wanted to participate with my son. The unit he joined had no tiger den lead and when the cubmaster found out I had earned my arrow of light, oa, and eagle he asked if I would step up to lead the den. It took a lot of consideration even doing that, but my wife (who is catholic) convinced me I had enough to offer the unit that if I could look past this and just promote the program as intended to the boys I should help. Fast forward a couple years and I'm cubmaster of a different unit at the catholic private school my kids go to still promoting the program as intended (including leading the kids to earning the Pope Paul VI award). I keep my thoughts private and deliver the best program I can.

 

My apologies for coming across like an asshole.

[TAHAWK]

I think its safe to say that BSA has never been clear about what is required under the labels "Reverent" and "duty to God." And that's just fine with me.

 

I have encountered some who think it's all crystal clear.

 

 

[Pack18Alex]

I think that someone who has his children in parochial school and running a scouting unit at said school would satisfy the idea of doing his duty to God, even if he doesn't believe in Him.

[TAHAWK]

Apparently, one has to first find out what kind of Humanism. This is the site of the "no supernatural" type: http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/What_is_Humanism

 

The cited opinion is unpublished and is not a judgment on the merits and thus has no value as precedent under the rules of the court..

 

Interestingly, the defendant prison already had a category of "religious assignment titled "atheist." The individual plaintiff wanted to be labeled "Humanist" and sued when the prison took the position that "atheist" covered his type of "Humanist."

[Huzzar]

 

Where does it say that? I can't find any requirement for a belief in a supreme being (or even a "belief in a higher power").

 

The BSA requires a "belief in God" but leaves the definition of that up to the individual. If the individual defines a "belief in God" as "I like ice cream", they are fine. As long as the person doesn't self identify as an atheist or agnostic the BSA is fine with them (it's the label, not the underlying belief structure that the BSA has a problem with).

 

From the Guide to Advancement:

 

 

You're being silly.

[packsaddle]

Absent someone volunteering that they are an atheist, I would personally avoid making such inquiries myself.

 

I agree. None of my business. I know of an instance in which the Eagle candidate was grilled by the district eagle person about the boy's religious faith. The boy had responded to a question about his church and the district guy evidently had an adverse personal opinion about that faith so he attempted to 'fail' the boy. The rest of the committee prevailed. The boy was an outstanding scout and did not deserve that kind of treatment.

[SeattlePioneer]

<>

 

 

Oh, I think that the human inclination to religion is satisfied in lotas of ways, including by lot of self proclaimed atheists.

 

 

As the thread title indicates, I think that many people's use of "humanism" qualifies as a religion and should be treated as one by the courts.

 

The dogmatism many people have about science qualifies science as a religion, despite the fact that many scientists might disagree.

 

 

The Roman Senate often declared their more succesful emperors to be Gods. The Catholic Church has declared many people to be Saints, which is a type of God or demi God as far as I'm concerned.

 

Similarly, the United States Congress has declared people to be national heroes, such as George Washington and ML King Junior---- surely the equivalent of the Roman Senate declaring emperors to be gods.

 

And then there is environmentalism and Earth Day --- surely a modern religion. Or an old religion, since nature worship is one of the oldest of religions.

 

I laugh at the effort of Federal Courts to exclude Christianity from the public square which makes the public square available to be occupied by the new state religions of the left described above.

 

Then there is the state religion of worshiping the constitution and the Federal Courts who are the Popes and Bishops interpreting the Bible of that state religion.

 

In short, you don't need a super natural being to have a religion. What you need are people, objects or ideas that have been deified and which are treated in a reverent manner.

 

What we have in fact are new state religions that the powers that be want to replace the faiths of our Fathers. And they are well along to doing just that.

[SSScout]

Really good to see the "Faith and Chaplaincy " forum being used so effectively. Oh, wait....

 

PBW: ""~~ given zero natural evidence for god"" I think there is room for debate there. Evolution is a wonderful construct, it makes sense to me. But the SOURCE of the evolution is what we are talking about here. There are very few BIG miracles anymore. You have to look for the SMALL ones as evidence for God operating in your life. Something happening at JUST THE RIGHT TIME (and no other) that affects you....

The BIG coincidences, which some might call miracles, also must give one pause. A moon that is just the right distance from it's planet to affect our tides and stir the oceans. A solar orbit that is just the right distance from it's sun. Oceans that absorb just enough energy and disperse it back just evenly enough. A magneto-electric field created by a rotating semi-liquid nickel-iron core to produce a magnetic field that protects the earth's surface from life frying microwave and cosmic radiation. A thin, thin layer of air that insulates us from the coldness of the vacuum of space.

The need for some to debate philosophy is just as good to me as the acceptance of a "supernatural supreme being " . It is an admission that there is SOMETHING more than merely "being". The subject of Philosophy deals with those sort of things, the results of actions and existence in general.

 

 

[DigitalScout]

Ironically the BSA rules permit Satanism, Voodoo/Vodu and UFO religions such as Scientology and Raelism. But a run-of-the-mill atheist is rejected? I don't get that.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ironically the BSA rules permit Satanism' date=' Voodoo/Vodu and UFO religions such as Scientology and Raelism. But a run-of-the-mill atheist is rejected? I don't get that. [/quote']

 

Do they really admit Raelians? It's one of the few religions that explicitly rejects gods, and instead says gods, angels, demons, etc were just aliens.

 

[NJCubScouter]

Ironically the BSA rules permit Satanism' date=' Voodoo/Vodu and UFO religions such as Scientology and Raelism. But a run-of-the-mill atheist is rejected? I don't get that. [/quote']

 

Where did you find those "rules", DigitalScout? I am not aware of any BSA rules or policies that name specific religious groups as being permitted or prohibited. Although it's a little difficult to know exactly what the policy is, my understanding is that if you believe in a higher power you are eligible for membership, otherwise, you are not. I don't know whether that necessarily includes or excludes any of the groups you name - except for Satanism. I guess Satan would be a "higher power." But keep in mind that a Scout also needs to subscribe to the rest of the Scout Oath and Law, not just the Duty to God and Reverent parts. I suspect a true Satanist might have difficulty complying with some of those points.