st0ut717 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 TL;DR summery A judge as ruled in favor of a prisonor that he has a right to have a humanist study group just the same as every other religion. effectively giving humanist the same rights as a church member. original source: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/11/03/3587801/district-court-declares-secular-humanism-a-religion/ So now a scout says he is a humanist what does this mean for BSA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PbW Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Personally I consider humanism more of a philosophy than a religion as most humanists are also secular. If the requirement of believing in a supernatural supreme being stands, I don't think humanism would cover it... unless they claim to be a deistic humanist. Such a shame as this program has so much to teach young boys about being good men without the religious part of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huzzar Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 If he's a Humanist that believes that there is no supreme being then he is not allowed to be a member. Nothing's changed. If he wants to lie about it then it's between him and his ...whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Knowing people who work in prisons, this ruling has nothing to do with religion as we know it. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PbW Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 No, this has nothing to do with "religion" as it is defined. More so about protecting a minority group and extending to them the same protections and rights as the majority... in this case allowing for a study group. Various forms of secularists are an ever growing demographic... something a group already struggling with member retention issues and being viewed as outdated or out of touch will have to account for in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I don't think this is really anything new, though whether I am correct or not, I suspect Merlyn will be along shortly with the details one way or the other. As for the BSA, this changes nothing, for the reasons mentioned by PbW. The current rule is that a Scout must believe in a higher power. Labels such as "religion" do not necessarily satisfy that requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattlePioneer Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 <<~~ If the requirement of believing in a supernatural supreme being stands>> Where does it say "supernatural"? Personally, I'm not inclined to cross examine children or adults about this issue. If someone gets up and says "I'm an atheist" then I'd make inquiries. I had a Tiger Cub do that once! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Porter Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 But we allow Buddhist who don't always believe in a supreme being? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 But we allow Buddhist who don't always believe in a supreme being? SHH! You'll shatter illusions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 If 'supernatural' isn't required to be part of it, a supreme being could just be mom in some families. Or maybe Diana Ross..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PbW Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 <<~~ If the requirement of believing in a supernatural supreme being stands>> Where does it say "supernatural"? Personally, I'm not inclined to cross examine children or adults about this issue. If someone gets up and says "I'm an atheist" then I'd make inquiries. I had a Tiger Cub do that once! You are right in that "supernatural" is not in the BSA's definition. However, given zero natural evidence for god(s) I stand behind my use of the term supernatural. What is so wrong about being an atheist? Aside from the colossally closed minded opinion of Baden-Powell that only men of god can be good people. I question the morality of any one who only does good deeds because they fear cosmic retribution or desire cosmic rewards. Do good for others because it promotes humanity and the progression of the species. To quote the late Christopher Hitchens, "Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 You are right in that "supernatural" is not in the BSA's definition. However, given zero natural evidence for god(s) I stand behind my use of the term supernatural. What is so wrong about being an atheist? Aside from the colossally closed minded opinion of Baden-Powell that only men of god can be good people. I question the morality of any one who only does good deeds because they fear cosmic retribution or desire cosmic rewards. Do good for others because it promotes humanity and the progression of the species. To quote the late Christopher Hitchens, "Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it." As an antitheist, it might do better to quote a theist if one wishes to discuss religion. If I wish to get a medical opinion on something that ails me, the last person I'm going to discuss it with is my high school math teacher. I also question the morality of others, especially those that do good deeds because they will derive benefit from it some were down the road. The reason random acts of kindness are so astonishing in our society is because they are so rare. Try walking down the street in a large city and say a pleasant "Hi" to everyone you meet. I did this and when I first asked why no one said "Hi" back, someone told me it was because they are suspicious of people who are too friendly. Saying "Hi" is too friendly? So much for doing good for others because it promotes humanity an the progression of the species. I guess I just like something that has a bit of a track record than the limited experience of my own reasoning and logic. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel947 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 You are right in that "supernatural" is not in the BSA's definition. However, given zero natural evidence for god(s) I stand behind my use of the term supernatural. What is so wrong about being an atheist? Aside from the colossally closed minded opinion of Baden-Powell that only men of god can be good people. I question the morality of any one who only does good deeds because they fear cosmic retribution or desire cosmic rewards. Do good for others because it promotes humanity and the progression of the species. To quote the late Christopher Hitchens, "Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it." Lots of loaded questions, comments, declarations and statements in here. My goal in replying is to be as respectful as I possibly can. Good for Hitchens. (Who like Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins, have some rather close minded, bigoted and dogmatic beliefs of their own.) BP believed that religion was important to forming character. BP's opinion isn't the end all, be all. Nobodies opinion is really. The BSA still follows BP's line on religion, and probably will in the near future. Some will object, and some will push for the change. I personally see the value that being religious has had on my ethics and values, but I recognize that other people have just fine ethics and values without religion. I think Scouting is a wider, more basic philosophy than any religions or secular principles. It includes and complements almost anybody's values. Like the gay issue, I believe atheists should be allowed to be Scouts. As a Catholic, I don't think I'll get any "cosmic" rewards or punishments for that. I think it's important to note, that while you are pushing for the BSA to respect the beliefs of atheists/anti theists, that disrespecting the beliefs of religious people, and questioning their ethics in the same ways you don't like your's questioned, probably doesn't win any supporters. So while you are trading blows with more conservative religious people in the BSA, it would do you good to keep in mind there are religious folks like me that share your opinions about including atheists in the BSA, but take offense to you questioning my morality as being inferior to yours. Isn't that the issue you have with the BSA to start with? We may never agree on religion, but we can agree to respect others beliefs, even if we think they are strange or absurd. As I said at the beginning, I'm trying to be respectful while objecting to some of your opinions. Perhaps I misunderstood or incorrectly represented your opinion. Yours, Sentinel947 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 ... I question the morality of any one who only does good deeds because they fear cosmic retribution or desire cosmic rewards. ... So did Jesus. What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PbW Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Honestly, a lot of my frustration comes from the consistent reminder of how I'm not good enough of a person to be involved in scouting because I do not believe in god(s) by those that want to push for the traditional foundation BP laid out. I have to sit quiet while knowing that I should not be part of an organization that did so much to raise me into the man I am today. Not because it taught me religion but for all the other life lessons. >> I think Scouting is a wider, more basic philosophy than any religions or secular principles. It includes and complements almost anybody's values. And it's these lessons of citizenship, leadership, courage, responsibility, thriftiness, helpfulness, adventure, resourcefulness, outdoorsmanship, and respectfulness that I want to help instill in my sons. Can I do that outside of scouting, yes. But this program offers such a great framework for it. But national says I can not participate because I can not check the "theist" box... and that chaps my hide. I did not need to go to the extent that I did in bringing up the question of morality or quoting Hitchens as that really served no purpose. That is more a reaction to BP's words that I've never been able to say aloud before in a public setting (as it were). It was not my intention to directly insult anyone... but often it's a natural byproduct of me talking to theists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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