Guide to Safe Scouting and wading in the Ocean

[ddubois]

Hi Scouters,

 

First time poster here, thanks for the forum to air my questions.

 

I'm a new Cubmaster for a Pack in Hawaii, and this Pack often has camping events at the Malaekahana State Recreation Area. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ma...db0c463c7fb9cf). Nearby there is a very lovely federal bird sanctuary on it's own private island with gorgeous views, called Goat Island. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Go...75e2eb7e0e3f56) On a couple of occasions in the past we have held closing ceremony for our Pack event, and then some adventerous "interested families" would get together afterwards, and wade out into the ocean to go visit Goat Island. The reason we explicitly did this "off the books", is because there is a contingent of our leadership that believes going into the ocean here is either 1) totally verboten , and/or 2) fails to conform to some of the criteria for safe swim defense in a manner that cannot be overcome.

 

I would like to make this activity "above board", and invite the entire pack to attend without the "wink, wink"-ing that has historically been involved. I'm read the Guide to Safe Scouting and the Safe Swim Defense rules, and I do not share the conviction that some of the other leadership possesses that this activity is verboten. The portions of the Guide to Safe Scouting that seem most relevant are:

 

3. Safe Area

...

Moving Water: Participants should be able to easily regain and maintain

their footing in currents or waves. Areas with large waves, swiftly flowing

currents, or moderate currents that flow toward the open sea or into areas of

danger should be avoided.

 

and

 

6. Ability Groups

....

The nonswimmer area should be no more than waist to chest deep and should be enclosed by physical boundaries such as the shore, a pier, or lines. The enclosed beginner area should contain water of standing depth and may extend to depths just over the head. The swimmer area may be up to 12 feet in depth in clear water and should be defined by floats or other markers.

 

The area is question involves water that either entirely or almost entirely 2-3 feet deep when you wisely choose to traverse it at low tide. (I've never tried at high tide, and wouldn't with the pack anyway.) We have had little kids, "old ladies", and mothers with babies in a papoose ford this water out to the island, so I feel comfortable claiming that it is not a dangerous trip. That said, it is the ocean, so there are currents, and everyone who lives in Hawaii should have an appropriate respect for the hazards of the ocean. We have had people lose their footing (but obviously everyone has been able to regain it), and the flooring is bumpy, slippery, and uneven. But I feel it to be safe, and moreover, I feel the view on the other side is something really majestic, that everyone should have the chance to see.

 

I am willing to jump through whatever hoops necessary in terms of assigning people to the role of lookouts/lifeguards, getting the correct headcount of people to take the correct amount of training, etc., to make this happen. Is this something I can and should push back on with the committee, or should I concede my understanding of all the various rules involved is too "loose" and this isn't something our Pack can do?

 

Thanks,

-Dan

[perdidochas]

Depends on local conditions.

[Rick_in_CA]

As it was explained to me by someone at the council, cub packs really can't do anything involving entering water unless it's at a professionally run pool with lifeguards.

 

Technically, to comply with safe swim defense, to allow your non-swimmers to wade across this piece of water you will have to do the following: You will have to first stretch a pair of float-rope lines across too the island (so this non-swimmer area will be enclosed by the shore at each end and the rope lines going across). Any underwater hazards (such as drop offs or uneven ground) will also need to be marked with floats.

Next you will have to have trained life guards posted (unless professional life guards are provided by someone else), a minimum of two, plus an additional one for every 10 participants above 20 (maintaining a 10 - 1 ratio). These lifeguards must remain in easy reach of all participants. You will also need to designate a specific person as a Lookout.

 

Everyone (adults included) are classed as non-swimmers unless they have passed the BSA test within the last year (it doesn't mater what other classifications they have - Michael Phelps is a non-swimmer until he passes a BSA test).

 

As the council rep said: "Cub pack going to the beach? Don't even THINK about going in the water!".

 

It's why our pack stopped doing it's annual summer swim party. It was held at a pack members home. Talking to the above mentioned council person about how to do it within the rules, we would have to either purchase or make float ropes to mark off the non-swimmer and beginner's areas, give everyone who wanted to go in the water swim tests (including the owners of the pool) or restrict them to the non-swimmers area, and provide trained lifeguards. We decided to do something else.

[SeattlePioneer]

See how BSA has rules so cumbersome as to effectively make desirable activities impossible. More of these all the time.

 

 

On the other hand, drownings are a major source of lives lost in Scouting.

[Rick_in_CA]

See how BSA has rules so cumbersome as to effectively make desirable activities impossible. More of these all the time.

 

 

On the other hand, drownings are a major source of lives lost in Scouting.

 

Yes, drowning is the second most common source of accidental death in the US for children of scouting age (after traffic accidents). So I understand why the BSA rules are so strict even though I agree that they are overly cumbersome.

 

It's that balance between safety and allowing kids the chance to take risks and have adventures. I think the societal pendulum has swung way to far toward safety and fear (you let your nine year old climb a tree? Call social services!), but the safety of kids swimming is something we need to take seriously.

[TAHAWK]

See how BSA has rules so cumbersome as to effectively make desirable activities impossible. More of these all the time.

 

 

On the other hand, drownings are a major source of lives lost in Scouting.

 

 

OR

See how BSA has become nimble enough to bar undesirable activities that are still possible. (I have seen beer served after the participants left Weekend 1 of Wood Badge, so there is clearly no essential connection between rules and behavior.)

 

Last study that I can find - 32 Boy Scouting fatalities:

1. Ian Joshua Miller, 2010, Coudersport, Pa. Sledding: sledding head injury; age 12

 

2. Corey Buxton, 2010, Zion National Park, Utah. Hiking: lost, hyperthermia; age 17

 

3. Anthony Alvin, 2010, Gemini Bridges, Utah. Hiking: fall tryng to leap from one rock formation to another; age 18

 

4. Michael Sclawy-Adelman, 2009, Big Cypress National Preserve, Fla. Hiking: heatstroke; age 17

 

5. Timothy Nunn, 2009, Philmont Scout Ranch, N.M. Hiking: heart failure; age 14

 

6. David Campbell, 2009, Arkansas River, Colo. Rafting: drowned; age 49

 

7. Craig McCuistion, 2009, Snake River, Wyo. Rafting: drowned; age 50

 

8. Daniel Fadrowski, 2009, Peach Bottom Township, Pa. Scuba diving: Heart attack; age 56

 

9. Luis Alberto Ramirez Jr., 2008, Yosemite National Park, Calif. Hiking: fall; age 16

 

10. Payden Sommers, 2008, Tar Hollow State Park, Ohio. Hiking: hyperthermia; age 11

 

11-14. Aaron Eilerts; age 14, Ben Petrzilka; age 14, Josh Fennen; age 13, Sam Thomsen; age 13, 2008, Little Sioux Scout Ranch, Iowa. Camping: tornado

 

15. Finn Terry, 2008, Clackamas River, Ore. Canoeing: drowned; age 11

 

16. Sean Whitley, 2008, Joseph A. Citta Scout Reservation, N.J. Camping: burns from campfire; age 17

 

17. Caleb Williams, 2008, Little Sahra National Recreation Area, Utah. Camping: tunnel collapse; age 12

 

18. Tyler Shope, 2007, Hidden Valley Boy Scout Camp, Penn. Camping: hit by falling totem pole; age 9

 

19. [Thomas Fogarty, 2006, Portsmouth, N.H. Parade fell off float and run over by vehicle; age 9 - NOT OUTDOOR ACTIVITY - MOTOR VEHICLE]

 

20. Paul Ostler, 2005, Camp Steiner, Utah. Camping: struck by lightning; age 15 - sleeping

 

21. Jeffrey Lloyd, 2005, Adams County, Idaho. Camping: fell from zipline; age 17 – no harness or helmet

 

22. Luke Sanburg, 2005, Yellowstone National Park, Wyo. Backpacking: fell into river while attempting to push logs into river, drowned; age 13

 

23. Chase Hathenbruck 2005, Animas River, N.M. Rafting: drowned; age 15

 

24-27. Ronald Bitzer; age 58, Mike Lacroix; age 42, Michael Shibe; age 49, Scott Powell; age 57; 2005; Ft. A.P. Hill, Va. Camping: electrocution– large tent poll they were setting up hit power line

 

28-29. Ryan Collins; age 13, Steve McCullagh; age 29 2005, Sequoia National Park, Calif. Backpacking : lightning

 

30. Kelly Beahan, 2005, Joseph A. Citta Scout Reservation, N.J. Camping: hit by falling tree; age 8 - girl

 

Interesting that the only fatal heart attack victim was a Scout.

 

Anecdotal deaths:

 

2014 - suicide by pistol

2014 - accidental hanging while building rope bridge

2014 - log rolled over Scout

2014 - 10-year-old practicing knots AT HOME hanged himself on bunk with rope he was using to practice knots

2013 - slipped under wheels of trailer being pulled by truck

2012 - hit by golf cart

2012 - fall while hiking at Stone Mountain

2012 - tree fell on tent

2012 - adult at summer camp. Cause unk.

2011 - fall (18 year-old)

2003 - cannon exploded

 

 

 

 

 

[qwazse]

TAHAWAK's list omits fatalities in transit to/from camp. For this situation, it sounds like the important thing is to have life guards with effective rescue equipment (which may include kayaks). There is a level of unpredictability with kids in large groups that you should account for.

[Stosh]

There are some factors that one could use to mitigate the hazard of such a wade. If everyone is in life-jackets and rescue poles with hooks are taken along. One of the problems with ocean currents is always the possibility of unpredictable currents that can sweep a light person off their feet. With a jacket on, they have a chance. One can still enjoy the adventure and be safe at the same time.

 

Stosh

[perdidochas]

As it was explained to me by someone at the council, cub packs really can't do anything involving entering water unless it's at a professionally run pool with lifeguards.

 

Technically, to comply with safe swim defense, to allow your non-swimmers to wade across this piece of water you will have to do the following: You will have to first stretch a pair of float-rope lines across too the island (so this non-swimmer area will be enclosed by the shore at each end and the rope lines going across). Any underwater hazards (such as drop offs or uneven ground) will also need to be marked with floats.

Next you will have to have trained life guards posted (unless professional life guards are provided by someone else), a minimum of two, plus an additional one for every 10 participants above 20 (maintaining a 10 - 1 ratio). These lifeguards must remain in easy reach of all participants. You will also need to designate a specific person as a Lookout.

 

Everyone (adults included) are classed as non-swimmers unless they have passed the BSA test within the last year (it doesn't mater what other classifications they have - Michael Phelps is a non-swimmer until he passes a BSA test).

 

As the council rep said: "Cub pack going to the beach? Don't even THINK about going in the water!".

 

It's why our pack stopped doing it's annual summer swim party. It was held at a pack members home. Talking to the above mentioned council person about how to do it within the rules, we would have to either purchase or make float ropes to mark off the non-swimmer and beginner's areas, give everyone who wanted to go in the water swim tests (including the owners of the pool) or restrict them to the non-swimmers area, and provide trained lifeguards. We decided to do something else.

 

Not really, G2SS doesn't say that. Now, you need to do the swim test, but other than that, cub packs can do things with water. The link below says nothing about any limitations on swimming.

 

If the whole area is 2-3 feet, then consider it a non-swimmer area, and anybody can go to it.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416_Insert_Web.pdf

[scoutldr]

"federal bird sanctuary" and "private island"...are you sure this is legal?

[RichardB]

Safe Swim Defense has been around for around ~ 80 years in some form......the concept is pretty simple (8 steps) and would apply as OP states water over knee deep. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss02.aspx#d

 

Being in Hawaii, hard to imagine that the pack couldn't plan for this, got lots of water to learn to swim in, test in, and have fun in.

 

Suggest contacting your council aquatics committee to sort out the best way to facilitate the event.

 

[ddubois]

"federal bird sanctuary" and "private island"...are you sure this is legal?

 

http://www.city-data.com/articles/Goat-Island-Mokuauia-Honolulu-Hawaii-Day.html

[IansDad]

I am the father of the first Scout mentioned in TAHAWK's post,, Ian Joshua Miller. He died from fatal trauma to the brain when the saucer style sled he rode down a baby slope of a ski resort. In talking with the Scout's Safety officer they still will not "Require" helmets for sledding.

 

So now that we are coming up on winter I would just like to say, follow the guidelines of safe swimming, make sure the area is clear of all obstacles including fences, ski lift towers, logs and parking lots or streets. Also please have your kids wear helmets, the AMA even says a bicycle helmet is better than nothing!

 

Take care of our boys! (and Girls)!

[st0ut717]

As stated in another thread I am pretty aquatic and I used to hate all these silly rules about water safety. Then I became a bsa guard I know fully understand why these rules are in place and why they are needed. If you want a sample have one of your older scouts act as a victim and try to swim them in. It is fracking hard and in a situation you may not have personnel available for a rescue swim. Btw I used to be station in Pearl Harbor the tides aren't bad. As compared to here in New England but rip current can appear anytime in the waters you describe particularly after a rain with low tides. I would use a guideline rope to use during the crossing with adults downstream.

[Rick_in_CA]

If the whole area is 2-3 feet, then consider it a non-swimmer area, and anybody can go to it.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416_Insert_Web.pdf

 

Only if it's enclosed:

The nonswimmer area should be no more than waist to chest deep and should be enclosed by physical boundaries such as the shore, a pier, or lines. The enclosed beginner area should contain water of standing depth and may extend to depths just over the head. The swimmer area may be up to 12 feet in depth in clear water and should be defined by floats or other markers.