Adult Leadership to Help Troop Advance

[MattR]

Please help me with this line:

"

They want to be better. The SM is a terrific outdoorsman that lives and breathes the BSA program, but he's mostly gotten frustrated with him. Last campout he and I were up until all hours of the night discussing what to do and brainstorming. When I left the campout, I posted here, looking for advice from people here.

"

Are you saying that the CC and you stayed up all night trying to figure out what to do about the SM? If so, that is the crux of the problem. If the SM is willing to change then there's the answer. If not, there's another answer. I think you've said a couple of times the SM does it his way and doesn't want to change.

 

All of the advice everyone is giving is based along the idea that the scouts need to grow into boy led and the adults job is to oil that machinery. The SM's job is to lead that process. As you've said, sitting back and just saying figure it out on your own isn't doing anything. The CC is responsible for having the right SM. The CC can either work with the SM or replace him. Those seem to be the options you have. All of the other ideas involving working around the SM, or plan B, is all just a bandaid for a compound fracture. Not to mention the power struggle that will follow. What does the rest of the committee think of the SM? Can the DE work with the SM? Or is this a matter of the SM saving face? I have a new ASM that thinks that because he has tons of experience in the outdoors that he'll be a great ASM. Well, no, he isn't because he doesn't know squat about working with boys.

 

There is plenty to work with in your troop. The fact that the boys were embarrassed with their pioneering project is easy pickings. "How would you guys like to learn how to make the best tower?" "You guys need to eat and clean up before 3 stars come up and we're not cooking for you anymore. Would you like to learn some quick easy recipes?"

[Pack18Alex]

MattR,

 

You talk to the active scouts, they want to be better. Plenty of snarky sarcasm from the less active ones at campouts, but hey, they're teenagers.

 

No, we had that Pack/Troop campout I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the SM and myself were chatting. He runs the program his way, we're all on board with him and the program he's running, at a tactical level. The training needs work, so we want to get him the resources to make that better,, and the program needs some strategic focus with a longer term horizon than high schoolers have.

 

I have also seen a HUGE improvement since he moved up from ASM to SM. However, as I've alluded to elsewhere, the prior leadership, in the pack and troop, was not so ideal. The old cub parents didn't think they had to do anything at campouts. The old members of the troop didn't think advancement was a big deal.

 

In the Pack, this was easily fixed by getting new families in and the natural churn of cub scouting. In the troop, without new blood coming in, we're struggling to fix. But we are hitting a natural crucible with the largest Den in the Pack now in Webelos 2.

 

Plan B sucks, we don't want Plan B. But Plan B happens if we don't fix this, so there you go.

 

What does everyone think of the SM? It's generally consistent. Great guy, super dedicated, great scouting expertise, a boon to the troop. However, he's not the most punctual of people or organized of people (in his scouting or real life), and has a problem seeing the forest from the trees.

 

So the budding consensus seems to be, let's identify the weaknesses in the program OR the SM, and fix them. Nobody wants to replace the SM, but we do want the program being better. So we want to take back parts of the program that are not the SM's strong suit, and re-assign those elsewhere, so he can focus on the areas he's good at.

 

We don't have anyone in the wings that we think would make a better SM, so we're looking for ways we can help make things stronger. I got some good feedback here, and some "well, have the SM magically become better at personality train X" which is really just wishful thinking and not a plan.

 

As far as the lack of advancing, there are a bunch of Scouts who ignored advancement when the SM did, then they decide they want to be an Eagle Scout and they are a Scout or Tenderfoot, but with all the Eagle required Merit Badges, and they are struggling to master the skills. The consensus between the PLC, TC, and SM is that we need to do better on advancement. We had no 1st Class Scouts until recently, then advancement push this year, two hit First Class and then going straight to Eagle (POR + time = BOR, they have the merit badges) as they could schedule SMC and BOR. But the other Scouts aren't have as much luck.

[King Ding Dong]

Where on the spectrum does the troop lay on passing the T-1 requirements. Complete mastery demonstrated multiple times "tie a bowline blindfolded while chewing gum and balancing on one foot on a 30* slope in the rain" or "once and done" and mastery comes from teaching the skill to other scouts and patrol competitions?

[Pack18Alex]

Where on the spectrum does the troop lay on passing the T-1 requirements. Complete mastery demonstrated multiple times "tie a bowline blindfolded while chewing gum and balancing on one foot on a 30* slope in the rain" or "once and done" and mastery comes from teaching the skill to other scouts and patrol competitions?

 

No clue. I watched someone testing some skills, and it was "couldn't do it to save his life." But, the basic knot tying stuff my younger daughters can do just from hanging around it at the cub scout stuff, so I'm pretty certain it's a training approach and a lack of practice. But I'm not entirely sure.

[MattR]

I think there are two issues. The first is the SM and the second is nobody understands the big picture.

 

​The good about the SM: Happy guy. I suspect the scouts like him, at least when he's not signing off reqs. A lot of outdoor skills. He expects the scouts to lead so he won't get in the way when they actually do. The bad: You can't make suggestions. Disorganized. No vision. Is it fair to say he has more confidence than skill and that's why he won't listen to anyone? Another guess is he thinks scouts should just man up and figure it out? That would fit with the comments that he has high standards and no inclination to help anyone get there.

 

The one and only big picture item missing is: The adults ask enough questions of the scouts till the scouts identify what they want to do and then ask enough questions that the scouts are successful at getting there. Given the SM, what can the ASM do that won't offend the SM? Can he run a planning meeting? Or a leadership training session? Or just a session to review what went right or wrong after an event? i.e., can the ASM complement the SM and find some way to get this process going?

 

​It just takes one adult that works with the scouts and gives them credit when they do a good job to keep everyone happy and moving forward. Let the SM keep his high standards and use that as motivation for the scouts. Have the ASM be the guy that works with the scouts so they meet those standards. If some scouts have all the Eagle MBs and still don't have first class skills signed off then you know what they will say when asked how's advancement going? Some scouts might say they're tired of roasting marshmallows on campouts. Either way, the next question is what can you do about it? The SM probably won't get in the way, and that's really good.

 

The skill needed by the ASM is knowing what questions to ask when. Ask them enough questions so they're successful. Ask them what they want. Ask them how much they think they can handle doing on their own -- and the committee handles what they can't do. Offer suggestions on how they might get there. Keep it simple. Forget about the budget for now. Ask them how to break a big problem down into smaller problems. Repeatedly ask them what they are doing to ensure their plans work. The ASM needs the vision.

 

BTW, from my experience I wouldn't spend too much time on scouts with bad attitudes. It's a horse and water thing. When and if they grow up they will be motivated. Until then I'd keep them from dragging down those that are interested in the program. Work the program for those that enjoy it.

[Stosh]

OR.... The SM is on the right path and everyone else is missing the big picture.

 

Well I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to defend the SM, not to be a Devil's Advocate, but because I may see something a little differently.

 

The SM is a great guy and the boys like him. That's a fantastic start. Parent's aren't so inclined. Too bad, it's not their program.

 

The SM is a bit disorganized, so an ASM is needed to shore up that gap. No, the boys should be able to organize themselves without adults having to step in and save the day. Leave the cavalry at home.

 

The SM can't see the forest from the trees. Have the boys spelled out for him where they need his help getting them to their goals?

 

The SM is doing just fine, the boys when they feel the pinch will step up. Other adults notice the pinch earlier because they are more aware than teenaged boys. So what.

 

Show me a likable, disorganized, lazy SM that's just a friend to the boys and genuinely likes working with the boys and I'll show you the ideal candidate for a SM of a Boy-Led, Patrol-Method troop. The boys like him, they will seek out his council, but he won't get in their way as they develop their program. Now introduce into that mix an ASM who doesn't think the SM is up to par, steps in where he isn't wanted, starts stirring the pot with the other adults/parents, and things will go down the tube rather quickly for the troop. This ASM needs a coffee mug of his own and a camp chair to sit in so he can sit and watch a friendly, likable SM work with his boys.

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Okay, so advancement is a problem. Mantra of a good Servant Leader is, "What can I do to help?" Well, ASM ask the SM if you might be able to help out in this area to make sure the boys are advancing. If he says, no, the PL's are handling it just fine, then one is back to: "What can I do to help?" Ask the SM if you might be able to offer your services to the PL's to see if you could assist them in focusing on their boys' advancement. If the PL's say no, they are doing just fine, what's an ASM supposed to do???? Same thing all over again, he asks, "What can I do to help?" If one says that often enough, when someone does need help, they'll know where to go. Patience is a virtue, not many people are that virtuous.

 

"​The good about the SM: Happy guy. I suspect the scouts like him, at least when he's not signing off reqs. A lot of outdoor skills. He expects the scouts to lead so he won't get in the way when they actually do. The bad: You can't make suggestions. Disorganized. No vision. Is it fair to say he has more confidence than skill and that's why he won't listen to anyone? Another guess is he thinks scouts should just man up and figure it out? That would fit with the comments that he has high standards and no inclination to help anyone get there."

 

Sorry, but I kinda like this SM, I'm thinking he might be doing something right here. Maybe the only one he's listening to are the boys!

 

Stosh

[LeCastor]

The SM is a bit disorganized, so an ASM is needed to shore up that gap. No, the boys should be able to organize themselves without adults having to step in and save the day. Leave the cavalry at home.

 

Sorry, but I kinda like this SM, I'm thinking he might be doing something right here. Maybe the only one he's listening to are the boys!

 

Stosh

 

I often remind the 10,000 adults who come to our Troop meetings that it looks like utter chaos to them but that the Scouts are doing their own thing. Last week when I looked around there were boys all over the place doing whatever it was they had planned to do. When I asked the PL if he thought things were going well he said, "yes", and when I asked him if he and the other were having fun he said, "uh huh".

 

Alex, read Stosh's book suggestion, Along the Mohawk Trail:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=DvUWAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=along+the+mohawrk+trail&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3ZBTVLiJLIWRyASW0oHYDA&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=along%20the%20mohawrk%20trail&f=false

 

 

[qwazse]

(Sorry for jumping back a few replies, but this got lost when the server froze.)

 

... Your assertion on not learning through example simply isn't backed by practice or theory. Leadership courses all heavily emphasize mentorship' date=' along with confidence building exercises and practice putting it into place. ... [/quote']

 

True. The really hard part is that with a group of adults vs. a group of boys you have this imbalance in mentorship that can turn into co-dependence. Adults want to be the solution to every problem, and boys want to find a comfort zone where adults solve their problems!

 

So, you need to find out just one thing adults could do differently to address just one problem and present it to the boys in a way that the "big picture" is on them.

 

... Correct, you teach them to fish, now they can fish, but they won't do it if you keep feeding them. However, if you don't teach them to fish, and you just don't fish and say figure it out, well that sucks.

 

... So I'm looking for ways I can help.

 

But ... what if you fish and say "Watch me!"

 

One possibility: How solid is each and every committee member in first class scout skills? Would it help if you all were in the back of the room timing or otherwise coaching each other on tying every knot? Reciting all of the versus if the national anthem? Working on kosher meal plans? Lashing together a catapult? Tying slings? Pushups or pull-ups? Rigging a shelter?

 

What I am thinking is that sometimes boys model what they see. And sometimes they'll try harder when they see that some adults are having it tough. And, maybe one or two will help that adult. In helping, they'll learn to mentor.

 

For example: bear bagging. I had never done it, only read about it, usually just let the older boys take care of it when we were in bear country. Then on one hike, I asked a boy who had been to Philmont to show me how. To this day, when I am demonstrating it to other youth, I credit him for teaching me. That way, the youth get it into their heads that "Hey, this isn't just about me and my buddies checking off a to-do list. This is about having skills that I can share with others -- youth and adult."

 

It's come-along-side-leadership. It's the long road. But it's the one with the greatest vision.

[Pack18Alex]

Qwazse,

 

Thank you, great and useful comments. Very true on the adults vs. group of boys. It needs to be VERY careful. However, if I were to listen to the other comments here, after appointing the Scoutmaster, depositing dues and turning in re-charter, the committee might as well disband, because everything should be on the boys. I don't think that's realistic, and doesn't jive with BSA policies. Might match some of Baden Powell's "Scouting for Boys" manual, but he was writing for older boys in a society where majority was obtained younger.

 

So here is a big picture issue.

 

Charter Org partnered with the Units for the Cub Scouting program, which is heavily filled with boys from the CO and surrounding area. The boys from the CO dropped out of the Troop because of issues with the program and leadership (prior SMs, not the new one). CO wants the programming for it's youth.

 

We have a W2 Den, larger than the Troop, predominately with CO boys.

 

So this is the driving issue, at this point, there was talk of spinning up a second troop and ignoring them. Because of BSA policies and CO rules, that's not what actually happens, the existin Troop would be off looking for a meeting space and Charter Organization, a handful of boys would "transfer back" and the continuity would be wrecked. That's what amounts to the Plan B, so looking for better alternatives.

 

So jblake may be 100% right about why he thinks that the SM is doing great and we should all butt out, but his opinion is irrelevant. The crucible is coming in a few months, and either things are better, or everyone in the troop is going to be out on their butts. Which is why I am here, looking for constructive solutions to make things better while minimizing the damage to the boy-run part of the program that goes great. The well meaning posters telling me everything is fine are basically inadvertently trolling, because things are NOT fine in this Unit/CO combination, even if this would all be fine in their CO.

 

We're the only Jewish Unit in our area, so "go to another troop" isn't an option.

 

In terms of adults... few skills between them all. Most of the adults at the meeting are there because they live 30 min+ away, so no reason to drop and run, they have to stick around.

 

When the Cub Scout Pack got a trailer, the Boy Scouts got jealous, and talked about how lucky they were. Every penny that went into the trailer was from Popcorn sales, not a dime came from parents... pack even paid my gas and tolls getting it here. But the Boy Scouts don't think it's possible to accomplish these things.

 

So after the back and forth here, one thing pitched to the PLC, having a guest come in and run a budgeting and planning exercise... so the boys identify, with their SM for guidance, what they'd like to acquire for the troop. Then learn how to price them out (tablet + Amazon.com gets a broad idea), how to rank, and how to set the sales goals and how to divvy it up. The goal is to have them all commit to a certain volume of sales. Idea being, volunteer teaches them the skills, they do the process.

 

But, it's NOT a skill that the SM has.

 

Same thing for annual planning. We start with the BSA Calendar, we know which Council/District events Troop wants (obviously reverify with them), black out dates that adult leaders need blacket out, add the CO events we're supposed to volunteer at, add the joint Pack/Troop activities, and then back to the PLC for filling out the rest of the calendar, guided by an adult. But what ends up happening now, is nobody is aggregating the BSA Council/District and CO events, so they come up and the PLC is dumbfounded. Sure it ought to be a learning experience, but when the CO expects our help and nobody shows up, that's a problem. When the Troop/Pack are supposed to do something together, the Adult led Pack needs an answer, not the PLC will discuss in 4 months.

 

But, the inadvertent trolling from well meaning posters here telling me why everything is okay are derailing the thread. There have been some great concrete suggestions, and warnings about losing the boy-run aspects, but lots of back and forth about the SM which is totally irrelevant. The SM is awesome, but like all people, they have limitations. Drop me in a forest for survival purposes, I'd drop dead, the SM would build a shelf and be fine. Drop me a mount of BSA paperwork to get everyone's awards on time, mine are turned out, digitally signed, and ready to go in 48 hours, the SM would be months before he remembered where he misplaced things. We all have different skills, and we want to relocate things where the SM isn't skilled to the committee, but my question here was how to do so without interfering in the programming.

 

For example, dates of religious holidays, Council Camporees, and the joint Pack/Troop stuff are all kind of fixed. If the PLC have 8 people from 6 patrols, it'd be a great learning experience to do what we do on the adult side. When the PLC consists of 3 people, with really one patrol, there is a firm limit to what they can do because of the manpower situation. 3 Hours, 3 people, yields 9 Boy-Hours. If the tasks involved are more than 9 Boy-Hours, then the adults should do enough that it is possible for them to get it done in those 9 boy-hours, otherwise, they are being set up for failure.

[CalicoPenn]

I had suggested that YOU take some time and read the SM Handbook, the SPL Handbook, the PL Handbook and the Troop Committee Guidebook. I gave you that suggestion because those books would give you a good grounding in how much different a Troop runs from a Pack and would help you through a lot of the questions you've got. The response was a snarky bit about telling other people to read the SPL manual and figure it out which obviously showed you missed the point.

 

You've just now spoke about calendars - had you read the Troop Committee Guidebook, you would have learned that one of the committee's jobs is to help the PLC prepare for their annual planning sessions by doing just what you have suggested - consolidating school, religious, and Council/District calendars into one. Oh - and those joint Pack/Troop activities - have the Scouts agreed to those or are they being dictated from on high? The only activities that should come from the committee as mandatory would be those days that the CO Is expecting some kind of participation from the Troop. If the Pack wants to have activities with the Troop, then guess what, in a boy-led program, they ask the PLC and wait for their decision. This is where a good Scoutmaster steps in with mentoring skills - the SM becomes the Wise Old Sage in quietly suggesting to the PLC that these would be good for the Troop - but the SM will also be ready to stand up for the PLC if they decide that one or more of the activities just don't fit in to their schedule this year.

 

Had you read the Troop Committee Guidebook, you would understand that the number one job of the Troop Committee is to support the Scouts and their program. Scouts plan the calendar - the committee then helps make that Calendar a success. If the Scouts want to go to a local BSA camp one weekend, who makes the call to Council? A member of the committee (there is even a committee member whose job it is to do these things). Who files the trip permit? The committee. Who contacts the State Park for a reservation? The committee (understand, part of the reason its like this is that most councils, state parks, local campgrounds, and national parks and forests will not, by policy, make a reservation with a 13 year old - those reservations can be considered contracts and minors can't enter into them, in general).

 

In most Troops, if the Troop needs new tents, the committee will do the initial research and select a few for the Scouts to select from. Replacement of troop gear? The QM informs the committee member that helps keep track of troop equipment and the committee gets it done. Budgeting and fundraising? Again, a committee responsibility (there is no treasurer position of responsibility for the boys). They might be able to create a preliminary budget on some things, but it's really going to be the committee doing most of the research. If the Scouts want to visit an archery range, the committee will find one. The committee really does have a lot to do - but all of it is in support of the Scout's program.

 

The Scoutmaster has do so his/her part as well - and the biggest part of that is to mentor and guide the SPL and PLC in the planning process and being able to quietly suggest they have 4 things on their calendar that is going to be costly - how will they get that money? The SM can have great outdoors skills - and the way to pass that on is to teach it to the PLC so the PLC can pass on those skills. The best PLC planning meetings are a PLC only camping trip to a local scout camp where planning, bonding and skills reviews can be done.

 

 

If you are really worried about a new crop of parents coming in and creating a W-3 Troop, then don't create the environment for them to get that kind of foothold - what you're suggesting sounds reasonable for a struggling troop - it also sounds exaclty like the mold needed to build a W-3 Troop. Build the boys first - maybe you need 4 planning sessions to start - plan out quarters at a time. Don't go with more than one summer camp - too ambitious and your dividing the NSP from the rest of the Troop - just more ammunition for the parents who might want a W-3 Troop. Get them some ranks - get your committee working on supporting the Boys program. The best advice I can give you to avoid that W-3 Troop is to start getting into the PLC planning the program now - sure, they may not be able to plan more than 4 months in advance right now, but you all need to present a united front when the time comes to say to a new scout parent - "That's up to the PLC"

 

Oh, and please understand, you can take or leave our advice at will - it won't hurt our feelings, but also know that many of us have many years of experience with this - we're not just spitting things out of the books, we're letting you know that it really does work if you let it.

[LeCastor]

Alex, please read this: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/ILST%20finals%202011%20-%20Item%20Number%20511-016.pdf

[Stosh]

"Same thing for annual planning. We start with the BSA Calendar, we know which Council/District events Troop wants (obviously reverify with them), black out dates that adult leaders need blacket out, add the CO events we're supposed to volunteer at, add the joint Pack/Troop activities, and then back to the PLC for filling out the rest of the calendar, guided by an adult. But what ends up happening now, is nobody is aggregating the BSA Council/District and CO events, so they come up and the PLC is dumbfounded. Sure it ought to be a learning experience, but when the CO expects our help and nobody shows up, that's a problem. When the Troop/Pack are supposed to do something together, the Adult led Pack needs an answer, not the PLC will discuss in 4 months."

 

And without teaching the boys how to do this, without their "buy into" the process, without their commitment to the CO activities, etc. this process will need to be done every year with the same results that have been occurring up to this point. So every year the BSA/CO events aren't coordinated, The Troop/Pack events aren't coodinated, and nobody shows up and the CO is ticked. Keep doing what you're doing and it will always stay the same. No one's going to change their behavior unless the process becomes personally uncomfortable.

 

My boys received the Council Calendar within a week of it being published. They have all brought in their School's Calendars, and we have access to the CO's general calendar for each month. Once we have collected up 12 of them, we will be able to plan out more than a month at a time with them. The operative dynamics here is the BOYS have all this information, and the PL has a loose-leaf notebook with them all in there. They make their plans accordingly and they know exactly what's going on. Sure the adults sit on the cusp of things making an occasional "observation" while the boys are learning. It's a new troop and all the boys are all about 12 years old. At the beginning we missed an event here and there and the boys were disappointed. It taught them to be a bit more vigilant and they aren't missing as much as they did at the beginning.

 

"But, the inadvertent trolling from well meaning posters here telling me why everything is okay are derailing the thread. There have been some great concrete suggestions, and warnings about losing the boy-run aspects, but lots of back and forth about the SM which is totally irrelevant. The SM is awesome, but like all people, they have limitations. Drop me in a forest for survival purposes, I'd drop dead, the SM would build a shelf and be fine. Drop me a mount of BSA paperwork to get everyone's awards on time, mine are turned out, digitally signed, and ready to go in 48 hours, the SM would be months before he remembered where he misplaced things. We all have different skills, and we want to relocate things where the SM isn't skilled to the committee, but my question here was how to do so without interfering in the programming."

 

As inadvertently trolling as it may seem to you, it would seem that the well meaning posters have told you what you needed to consider, but you keep blowing them off.

 

SM is great with the boys, with the woodcraft, with those kinds of programing things. Okay, that's solved. The committee is good with the behind the scenes paperwork. Okay that's solved. Define the duties and you're done. They don't clash or over-run each other. It's perfect and yet, there's a problem? I don't see it.

 

"For example, dates of religious holidays, Council Camporees, and the joint Pack/Troop stuff are all kind of fixed. If the PLC have 8 people from 6 patrols, it'd be a great learning experience to do what we do on the adult side. When the PLC consists of 3 people, with really one patrol, there is a firm limit to what they can do because of the manpower situation. 3 Hours, 3 people, yields 9 Boy-Hours. If the tasks involved are more than 9 Boy-Hours, then the adults should do enough that it is possible for them to get it done in those 9 boy-hours, otherwise, they are being set up for failure. "

 

Huge troop has plenty of boys to do the work. There's a ton of work to be done because the troop is large. Not a problem

 

Small troop has just a few boys to do the work. But there's not a lot of work to be done because the troop is small. Not problem.

 

Quit with the numbers! This is not an accounting/paperwork problem.

 

If you need numbers look at it this way. PL/APL have max 6 other boys to take care of. That's not a big job. SPL/ASPL have 6 PL's to take care of (moderate sized troop). That's not a big job. Huge troop? 12 patrols? Just start adding ASPL's to handle it. No one should have to worry about more than 3 other boys, 6 with the PL/APL or SPL/ASPL people.

 

QM takes care of QM's from the patrols, If more than 6 patrols, add on QM's and patrols to each

 

Scribe take care of Scribes from the patrols, same thing

 

TG, one for each NSP because of the learning curve. Now the NSP's all have PL/APL/TG team to help them get set.

 

Show me where the number are so big that the boys can't handle it?????

 

Otherwise, all I think is happening here is that we are trying to work a process to justify an adult-led program and I don't think one is going to pull it off gracefully because that's not what the BSA teaches or promotes and not many on the forum really want that for their troops even if their current program is adult-led. Yes, adult-led minimizes the possibility of the boys failing, but it also minimizes the possibility of the boys leading as well. I always tell my boys, failure is a good thing. It teaches one to problem solve and work to improve for next time. If you have never failed in your life, how can you as a PL ever "take care of your boys" when they fail? My favorite come back for the boys when things go on the blink is, "I bet you won't be doing it that way next time." Instead of guilt, I usually get a sheepish grin and a quiet, "Nope." in reply. The one thing my boys are not afraid of is failure. I have had boys that were terrified of failure and it kept them from making even the most basic decisions in life. It was rather sad to see. Sometimes it is painful to sit by and let the boys fail, but it is a necessary step in their development process.

 

Stosh

[TAHAWK]

No one is "trolling." Google is your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

 

To be an agent of change you need to be able to deal with the reality that not every single person will always agree with you. It is also helpful to consider that they may be right on occasion.

 

It is hard to change things, for good or ill, from the SA position. But there is no reason you cannot present the SM and SPL with the CO, Council, and District calendars with the comment that the information is supplied to help prevent conflicts and allow planning.

 

If there is a problem with fund-raising and budgeting, that is a Committee job.

Troop TreasurerThe unit treasurer is appointed by the committee chairman to handle unit funds, pay bills, maintain accounts, coordinate the annual Friends of Scouting (FOS) campaign, and supervise fundraising.

 

It is expected that adults will be resources for the leaders. Once the Scouts have skills, it is expected that they will teach, but the chain of learning has to start with someone who has or gets the information. EDGE is for adults too (Although they often have a problem with the final "E.")

 

Matt's suggestion of a leadership outing is great. Every unit I have been registered with had a weekend of fun, some training, and planning. The deliberate inclusion of fun as an objective helped create success. A weekend allowed time to start planning with a brain-storming discussion of objectives that the leaders saw as important so that goals could drive planning.

 

Compare:

1. Learn the knot because [i think] you should

2. Learn the knot to advance.

3. Learn the knot so you can build your shelter for the Wilderness Survival Campout.

 

Which most fits the notion of Scouting as a game? Which is likely to be more attractive to a kid?

 

Sounds like everyone needs to be trained, starting with the adults. That allows a common understanding of the "rules of the game."

[qwazse]

Qwazse,

 

Thank you, great and useful comments. Very true on the adults vs. group of boys. It needs to be VERY careful. However, if I were to listen to the other comments here, after appointing the Scoutmaster, depositing dues and turning in re-charter, the committee might as well disband, because everything should be on the boys. I don't think that's realistic,

 

Understand that a lot of these comments stem from experiences of unintended consequences. Every troop and crew committee needs to think long and hard about what it can "do" for the boys. All of us SM/ASM/Advisors have had to deal with domineering MC's, and for us to succeed we sometimes have had to read them the riot act. On rare occasions, we need to listen to them. And most of the time we do so just to be polite.

 

You've admitted you're in a precarious position ... with a well-meaning scoutmaster who seems to have evil twins throughout the nation in troops/crews just like yours. And practically speaking, you need to avoid getting "read the riot act" (although really the world's not going to fall apart if SM has to say "this is how it's gonna be" once and a while), provide opinions and act in ways that your SM can and will respect, and make sure that he's not -- out of sheer politeness -- wasting precious time on tasks of minimum impact.

 

​

... Charter Org partnered with the Units for the Cub Scouting program, which is heavily filled with boys from the CO and surrounding area. The boys from the CO dropped out of the Troop because of issues with the program and leadership (prior SMs, not the new one). CO wants the programming for it's youth.

 

We have a W2 Den, larger than the Troop, predominately with CO boys.

 

That's actually a selling point. The W2's in a boy-led troop can be assured that they will be pretty much scouting with their buddies. No being split up into a half-dozen existing patrols. They have a majority when electing leaders, etc ...

 

So this is the driving issue' date=' at this point, there was talk of spinning up a second troop and ignoring them. Because of BSA policies and CO rules, that's not what actually happens, the existin Troop would be off looking for a meeting space and Charter Organization, a handful of boys would "transfer back" and the continuity would be wrecked. That's what amounts to the Plan B, so looking for better alternatives. [/quote']

 

Not sure what you would tell your "spin-off" people. But I would be doing quite well for myself if I had a dollar for all the times our "Plan B" kids and parents griped about their highly organized, regimented, advancement-focused SM and wish they could back be in our troop. (FWIW, we've never closed the door behind them. But we've never wh

 

... The crucible is coming in a few months, and either things are better, or everyone in the troop is going to be out on their butts. ... The well meaning posters telling me everything is fine are basically inadvertently trolling, because things are NOT fine in this Unit/CO combination, even if this would all be fine in their CO.

 

We're the only Jewish Unit in our area, so "go to another troop" isn't an option.

 

There's the story of Korah's rebellion ... best remind folks about it. You've recognized that the SM is an improvement over the past. Talk him up. Tell your parents there's reasons to expect great things of him.

 

In terms of adults... few skills between them all. Most of the adults at the meeting are there because they live 30 min+ away' date=' so no reason to drop and run, they have to stick around.[/quote']

 

That's not that unusual. That's why I suggested giving them scout-skill challenges. That way they can appreciate what the boys are trying to do.

 

When the Cub Scout Pack got a trailer' date=' the Boy Scouts got jealous, and talked about how lucky they were. [/quote']

 

If this boils down to "trailer envy", I'm gonna throw up. It's okay to be tough on the boys. This is part of asking them "What's the plan?" Some boys may not answer in terms of advancement, they might answer in terms of acquiring personal or troop gear for their next adventure. Because they hate selling popcorn, it might be getting a job gardening. (I hear things grow fast in FL.) Again, this is the thing you train the troop committee to do. Ask the questions that enable boys to share a vision. But a dozen boys don't need a trailer. So the question you ask them: "Why do you think the troop needs a trailer?" or "So you'd like to spend extra time cleaning a trailer?"

 

The goal is to have them all commit to a certain volume of sales. Idea being' date=' volunteer teaches them the skills, they do the process.[/quote']

 

And, what 1st class rank advancement will this achieve? I'm not against a sales coach offering your boys some tips on how he/she plies her trade and having the boys apply those skills at a fundraiser. But, only if the boys have bought in that this is something they need to do.

 

Same thing for annual planning. We start with the BSA Calendar' date=' we know which Council/District events Troop wants (obviously reverify with them), black out dates that adult leaders need blacket out, add the CO events we're supposed to volunteer at, add the joint Pack/Troop activities, and then back to the PLC for filling out the rest of the calendar, guided by an adult. But what ends up happening now, is nobody is aggregating the BSA Council/District and CO events, so they come up and the PLC is dumbfounded. [/quote']

 

I get what you are saying. Calendar consolidation is a foreign practice. Kids aren't learning it in schools. But, your leading boys need to be in the room when you do it. Be somewhere with a copier so you can copy that consolidated calendar right away. If I were SM and I felt confident that you could coach the boys in doing this, I'd let you. If I thought you'd grab the pen from the scout and start taking notes for him, I wouldn't. It will only get more complicated as they move into high school and diversify their lives. They need to start practicing this NOW.

 

By the way, this is no different than the 1st class land navigation requirement. Hikers need to circle up around the map and be sure that everyone has equal access to it and feels able to discuss their interpretation of the terrain. If even one guy doesn't have a clear view of the map while you plan the next mile, the team could miss an important feature that might cost an hour of back-tracking.

 

Final comment: a parent might have property or a nice home or place of business that the boys would enjoy for their ILST course. It doesn't have to be a camp out. It just has to be someplace where the boys can intersperse fun with the lessons.

[Pack18Alex]

Thanks for all the reading material and feedback. It'll probably be a few days to digest everything you've sent my way, a LOT to chew on.. Thanks for all the help!

 

A few comments back to qwazse who gave a very detailed response.

 

"But a dozen boys don't need a trailer."

 

When the CO has no storage space, and none of the dads drive a truck, and the people storing gear in their garages are griping, it's a BIT of a concern.

 

In terms of the Calendar, we have a few extra concerns...

 

CO is officially of the opinion all Jewish Youth should be in Jewish Private Schools. Therefore, even if there isn't a single boy in a particular Jewish school, if the Unit schedules things that would interfere, that's a potential lightning rod. There are also black out dates for Jewish holidays that simply aren't at the discretion of the boys in the Unit. Basically, if the boys in the troop decided, screw it, most of us aren't Sabbath-observant, we're going to do an event on the last day of Passover because it's convenient for us... that's simply unacceptable to the CO.

 

"And, what 1st class rank advancement will this achieve? I'm not against a sales coach offering your boys some tips on how he/she plies her trade and having the boys apply those skills at a fundraiser. But, only if the boys have bought in that this is something they need to do."

 

None. But they are upset they don't have "stuff" and they don't do fundraisers because they've never seen a need. A lot of this is just getting the ball rolling and giving them the tools to have a successful year with the NSP joining. If they have a successful year, it should feed on itself and go great.

 

"That's actually a selling point. The W2's in a boy-led troop can be assured that they will be pretty much scouting with their buddies. No being split up into a half-dozen existing patrols. They have a majority when electing leaders, etc ..."

 

But that's not the decision facing the CO boys in the W2 Den. They aren't considering other Troops. Their choice will either be: Join the current Troop, or Drop out of Scouting. The parents have option 3, which is take over the CO's troop, because the CO only nominally knows they have a BS Troop as opposed to a CS Pack.