Camping when cold

[Sidney Porter]

BSA has a rule against tent heaters.

 

I have a mt heater 4k-9k btu propane heater. whick I will use in may garage. I have tested it out in a tent if it is running it can keep the tent pretty warm, but I would not sleep with it. I also tested it in a 6 person tent with only 2 people so there was plenty of room around it. I also had it on a piece of tile.

[Sidney Porter]

 

Avoid down.

 

I have never heard to avoid down from a temp standpoint. Cost and care sure. You can also have an issue with it getting wet althought there is treatment on newer bag that will prevent the down from absorbing water. I down have a down bag but I know that my down coat is the warmest coat I have pound for pound.

[Hedgehog]

Sosh's post is right on. Avoid cotton. This includes underwear, t-shirts, sweatshirts and socks. The only cotton allowed is a bandana (and the 800 count Egyptian cotton pillow case over my down backpacking pillow). Always have separate clothes for sleeping (they will be dry and will not have food odors if you are in bear country). Dress in layers - the space between the layers will keep you warm - use a base layer and the synthetic sweat pants and sweatshirt if it is real cold. I typically sleep in just a wool base layer (with the weight varying on the temperature) or a pair of compression tights if we are backpacking (great for sore muscles). Figure that a tent adds around 10 degrees (feels like more if you are dealing with wind chill). A four season tent will be even warmer. Have a sleeping bag and pad that are suitable for the temperatures you are going to encounter. I have a 50/70 degree bag and a 20 degree bag. You can cool a warmer bag by partially unzipping the zippers. You also can increase your temperature by adding a hat and socks. I see no problem using a down sleeping bag - it is lightweight and warm. I also like the self inflating and air pads - provided they have a high R (insulation) value - because of how easy they pack. Finally, eat before sleeping. Cold weather camping is why God invented those single serving Tastycake pies and prepackaged chocolate cupcakes. And yeah, buy a yellow Nalgene bottle if you typically need to visit the latrine during the night.

[Cambridgeskip]

Here in southern England we don't get proper winters the way you folks do. You have to get up to Scotland for that sort of thing!

 

When we do camp in properly cold conditions (coldest I've taken kids out in went down to -8C over night, not sure what that is in F, sorry!) the one thing the kids often get wrong is that they put so many layers on that they completely fill out their sleeping bag. The problem being that you don't get as much dead air in there and it can actually make you warmer by removing a layer.

 

I recomend that they keep a set of clothes for sleeping in and that set stays in their sleeping bag. It never comes out.

 

We also cram them in a bit. 3 scouts in a two man tent, 4 scouts in a 3 man.

[Stosh]

While a tent can add about 10 degree difference it's insulation properties are pretty weak. Yes, it can knock down the wind chill factor quite a bit.

 

If the temperature is heading towards zero, it's best to build a snow cave. People often don't take into consideration that snow is an excellent insulator. Ask any Eskimo. One of the problems with a snow cave is moisture. 3-4 boys in a snow cave can warm up the inside with body heat to the point where the ceiling will melt and drip.

 

I have never tried it because of the nylon bedding, but it has been reported that a well built snow cave and plumber's candle can maintain an inside temperature of 45 degrees regardless of the outside temperature.

 

When I take the boys winter camping I generally make a small one-man snow cave and do just fine for the weekend. I have modified the snow cave to a series of hoops with tent fly laid over them and then covered with a thick layer of snow. Because one is not piling up snow to hollow out, but just adding snow over an established cavity, it will take all day to build without collapsing.

 

One year I got lucky and found room under a downed tree. Shebanged both sides and piled snow on it leaving a small opening. Because of the strength of the tree, I didn't worry about it collapsing and had a shelter built in less than an hour with a minimum of 1'-2' of snow for insulation.

 

The year I tried the tent route and while it did keep things drier, it was not as warm.

 

Stosh

[JoeBob]

TAHAWK: My compliments on your excellent explanation; trapped air insulates - insulating materials are designed to trap air.

 

1- A light weight poncho liner thrown over the top of your sleeping bag will add ten degrees of comfort. It traps more air on the outside of your bag. Heavy blankets on top of you bag push air out of your bag; no help or worse.

 

2- I wear a sweater/fleece around my neck (arms out of the sleeves) in extreme cold. It serves as a baffle to keep the warm air in and those cold 'suction drafts' out when you turn over.

 

 

KDD: Using the porta-tree from my hammock is a particular challenge. Almost makes me wish for a catheter...

[koolaidman]

 

... And yeah' date=' buy a yellow Nalgene bottle...[/quote']

 

I thought I was the only one! Though where we camp it is more for rainy nights than anything else.

[LeCastor]

KDD, is right! Man, I hate getting out of my nice, warm sleeping bag in the cooler temps to answer the call of nature. Thanks Hedgehog for the yellow Nalgene idea.

 

Just like the red bottle is for stove fuel...Don't drink from the yellow Nalgene!

[CalicoPenn]

The BSA bans heaters in tents because they assume outdoor heaters are gas fired heaters and gas fired heaters generate carbon monoxide - not a good thing in an enclosed environment like a tent. They didn't take into account electric heaters but still not a good idea - ever wake up to a cold day with condensation dripping down the insides of the windows? You can thank your heating system for that. The condensation from breathing is bad enough - you don't need condensation from warm air rising to meet cold air outside the tent - that's a sure recipe for creating a rainstorm in your tent.

 

I'm going to buck a trend here and I'm going to tell you that cotton t-shirts are just fine for sleeping in. The reason "cotton is a killer" is that unlike wool or polypro, which wicks moisture from the inside to the outside of a garment, cotton holds moisture much more easily so as you're active and sweating, a cotton t-shirt is getting soaked though and not wicking the moisture away from your body. At night, while sleeping, if you're sweating so badly that you need to wear wool or polypro, then you have way too many layers going in your sleep system for that night.

 

My system - closed cell pad (ensolite) topped with open-celled pad (thermorest), lightweight fleece blanket, sleeping bag (opened and treated as a blanket) - t-shirt and shorts (put on fresh right before bed) - no socks (though I'll wear wool socks only because I use my sleeping bag like a blanket and risk having my little tootsies sticking outside), hat optional (mostly needed by bald adults - if you have a full head of hair, you already have the best insulator you need on your head - a hat will compress it - and I know all about the old "more heat escapes from your head" story - it is true, but only because the head if the least likely place on your body to be fully covered by clothes - relatively speaking, the amount of heat that does escape from the head on a cold day or night is pretty inconsequential - your body will generate more heat that it will lose through your head if you remain somewhat active), I'll wear a sweatshirt for the first hour or so - mostly to temper the warming of the sheet and bag - (it is body heat that is trapped by the insulation in your sleeping bag and sleeping pad - you want to "temper" the rate in which your body warms those up - the added sweatshirt slows the transfer down just enough so that most people won't be shivering in a warm bag by midnight). If it's really really cold, I'll wear a balaclava as well - but only because no matter what the temperature, the face stays out of the bag so that you're breathing into the tenant and not the bag - your breathing will create some condensation on the tent walls - better the tent walls that inside your sleeping bag.

 

I've stayed comfortable at 20 below like this.

[Stosh]

Personal preference is just that, it works for one person, but unless it is properly studied and evaluated, the facts remain just that facts.

 

Cotton looses 100% of its insulating capability when wet. Wool retains 100% of its insulating capability when wet. Choice is yours.

 

Moisture against the skin is the reason why we cool off, i.e. we sweat to cool off. Just because it's winter doesn't mean we quit sweating.

 

Fabrics that wick moisture off our skin, i.e. polypropylene offers 0% insulating capability, but is is a hydrophobic fabric which means it wicks moisture off the skin into the next layer.

 

Cotton not only looses its insulating capability, it holds moisture against the skin which will cool the body. One needs more energy and heat to counter this and that also produces more sweat/moisture. Not a good cycle to develop Yes, one can over layer while sleeping just like they do when up and active during the day. One needs the ability to regulate the body temperature. However, if one gets too warm wearing cotton and then reduces insulation, they will cool off too quickly. The poly/wool allows for a less radical in between layer that doesn't affect the body directly.

 

Hat? There are a tremendous amount of blood vessels in the head because of the cooling necessity the body needs to protect the brain. There is also no layer of fat to insulate the head and thus the warm blood in those vessels lose heat at a tremendous rate, which it is supposed to be doing.

 

For those using the nalgene bottles, remember one has to keep hydrated which makes one's problem even worse, but compromised circulation will reduce the flow of warm blood throughout the body. Drink like it was summer. The relative humidity is way, way down and evaporation from one's breath is increased with the dry air.

 

Balance of sugars, carbohydrates and proteins is vital to staying warm and generating heat throughout the night.

 

At winter survival camp, the staff goes through everyone's clothing and removes anything made of cotton. The scouts are warned up front that the staff will be doing this and if there's no enough clothing left for your activity, one has to say back at the lodge.

 

As for me, I wouldn't make it through the night with Calico's advice, but maybe some of the younger folk could. I wouldn't want to be up at 3:00 am walking a kid around camp lap after lap trying to keep him warm until the sun comes up. A nalgene bottle isn't going to help much with that.

 

And yes, over the years I have seen my fair share of people having miserable nights, frostbite, and boots they couldn't get on the next day for the hike back because they didn't listen to explicit directions. When it comes to winter survival in our clime, it's best to listen carefully.

 

Stosh

[DuctTape]

Fabric properties vary considerably and one's choices will optimize those properties. While cotton is not recommended, it isn't because it has no use in sub-zero conditions. On the contrary, it is the fabric of choice for certain applications. However, as a general rule and especially for scouts it is best to just say no cotton.

 

I would add to Stosh;s list for balanced nutrition in winter to include FAT, and lots of it. Fat and sugar are the best fuels for ones body to generate heat. As Stosh said, ask an eskimo.

 

I can verify that a candle (we used tea lights) can bring the ambient temp in an igloo to in the 40's. A good cold sink in the floor and between the room and door is necessary. BTW, the air temp outside the igloo was in the negative teens. We did make igloos, not snow caves nor quinzees.

[MattR]

I'm going with Stosh on this one. I don't care how warm my bag is, and I have plenty of hair on my head, if my neck and head are exposed, I'm cold. As for yellow nalgenes I learned a long time ago that if it takes 20 minutes to get dressed, while you have to pee, it's better to just have an extra water bottle. BTW, I know it was a cold night when piss freezes

 

On our cold campouts we tell scouts to bring extra long underwear and to put a dry pair on before they go to bed and to wear those the next day. Even if they didn't sweat during the day there is still moisture in their clothing. On the really cold campouts we push calories as well as water. It's kind of a hobbit thing. Breakfast, morning snack, elevensies, lunch, .... Since we started feeding them at 9pm we've had very few scouts waking up cold. The late night snack is what diabetics should eat, little sugar, complex carbs, fat and protein. We also tell them to stay away from the fire as it will slow down their metabolism. One other thing I haven't seen mentioned is we put a wool blanket on the bottom of the tent to cover the entire floor. There's a lot of cold coming up from underneath.

 

I've made quinzees and they are much warmer than a tent. The only problem is how much work it is. Our snow is so dry that the usual igloo approaches don't work.

 

But maybe this is all a bit much for the lady that's cold at 64 degrees?

[King Ding Dong]

At BALOO several years ago a scooter told me he would put stones in the fire then bury them in a hole under the tent with an inch or two of soil over the rocks. Says it kept him warm. Anyone hear of that or tried it?

[LeCastor]

Long ago in the dim ages..my grandpa would warm rocks, place them in a stuff sack, and then finally put that sack at the foot of my grandma's sleeping bag. Never heard of putting them under the tent...seems like the woo blanket insulator and sleeping pad would be enough.

[Stosh]

MattR,

 

A plastic sheet to keep the moisture from soaking into the bedding and a foam pad for insulation will do better than a wool blanket. My RidgeRest pad rolls up and takes less space, and is lighter than a wool blanket.

 

For those that prefer the tents over snow shelters, the best one I've found is the old military pup tent. Those insulated with snow do a lot better, have a low ceiling, and retain heat better than nylons. The only problem is deadfall staking. I've had to jury-rig the tent sometimes because it is not free-standing.

 

KDD,

 

I would think just letting them sit out in the tent would be better than digging a hole in the frozen tundra. Also the ground is terrible for robbing the heat out of charcoal, I"m thinking one would lose a lot of valuable heat from the rocks if they were buried in frozen ground.

 

Stosh