21st Century Wood Badge a Thing of the Past

[TAHAWK]

Nudging the patrol method into the new WB course will probably do no more good than the patrol method approach of all the rest of this historical WB's. The trick is to take it home and use it in the troops one is serving. That has always been the disconnect and until the adults are taught servant leadership instead of general management, it won't change.

 

Stosh

 

 

Stosh, don't we all agree that getting the trainees to actually use what they are taught has always been an issue? (Surely "Driver's Training" does not teach what we all see every day on the roads.)

 

Kids are not born care-givers. Me !!! Now !!! That is how it starts. We all recall with pleasure the leader who took care of his "troops" - was the last whose tent was up, the last to eat, lightened the load of the tiny patrol member. That was once simply called "a god leader." Now we have another label.

 

But if we do not teach the correct behavior - for adults in this instance - we have little grounds to be disappointed when they are not up to the mark.

 

What does BSA do to encourage serving adults to behave? How do we recognize the unit using the Patrol Method - or those that do not? I know Journey to Excellence has some of that in there, but should be explicit and essential to any level of recognition.

[Stosh]

I have mentioned before in other posts that BSA troops makes little or no effort to actually use the Patrol Method which BSA promotes. There have been hundreds of comments on ad hoc patrols, patrol sizes from 2 to 20, SPL runs the troop, PLC made up of anyone who wants to show up, annual reorganizations of patrols by adults, etc. Is it any wonder no one really knows what's going on in the average troop.

 

Hey, 6 boys are finally just now getting the hang of this teamwork thing, they are working together at the activities and starting to get a handle on it when the SM shows up and says here's your two new boys. So, what do you do, start all over? ignore them? spend all your new free time on training them? or what? I for one would not appreciate that kind of adult imposition on my patrol. Do this 2 -3 times and by then the boys have reached 16, have their car keys and they vote with their feet. Then the SM blames the scout for leaving.

 

I guess I wouldn't have a problem with not doing the patrol method, but there seems to be a lot of effort out there that actually works against any effort to even have a patrol method. A group of well trained adults can simply take over run the show and tell the boys what's going to happen. End of discussion. And unfortunately I see this all the time.

 

But then there's the SM who dangles patrol-method out there, breaks into groups, has elections, etc, only to thoroughly convince the boys that it is totally in name only and that for convenience sake, all bets are off once we get to Camporee.

 

These are NOT the things taught by BSA to any of the leaders, but somehow that seems to be the standard operating process for most troops. I am dumbfounded as to where these SM/ASM's get the idea to run the program any other way than what is being taught.

 

Scout camps are set up with dining halls where the boys might sit together as patrols, but probably more as troops. The competitions seems to favor troops and/or ad hoc patrols. Sites are too small to separate the patrols. It's been 15 years since I was at Philmont but isn't a contingent 9 people. With 2-deep adult, that means a full patrol of 8 can't go together.

 

If one starts becoming sensitive to this issue, it is rather remarkable the number of things out there that are counter productive to the patrol method. I see troop flags with huge number of ribbons dangling from the top. How come those ribbons aren't hanging from the top of the patrol flags? Probably because the only patrol flag the troop is a pillow case tied to a stick so that they can get credit for it at a Camporee competition station.

 

All I can say is: Wake up people this is NOT what BSA is teaching in it's training program!

 

Stosh

[TAHAWK]

Stosh, you cannot find in a single list/page/chapter of current BSA publications a statement as to what constitutes the Patrol Method. Oh the pieces are all there somewhere, scattered throughout BSA's words - if you know what those pieces mean, And someone like you sees the implications of what you see, even when it is not clearly spelled out. But for the new parent who thinks like parents typically think? Or for the long-serving leader who thinks it's all options that he or she can use or ignore?

 

"what BSA is teaching"?

You teach what the learner understands you to be teaching. Your behavior speaks louder than words. At best, BSA has been doing a weak job of teaching the Patrol Method to adults. You point out some of the unhelpful things that are done and said. How about the statement that patrols "may" -- MAY -- have their own activities BUT must follow this rule: The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function." How about awards to adults well known to refuse to use the Patrol Method? (Such a person became a Silver Buffalo from our Council last year. We know him as the great advocate for adult leadership.) How about putting such adults in district and council leadership positions? What many see BSA to be teaching is NOT that the Patrol Method is a mandatory, and the most important, method of Scouting.

 

You, Stosh, can finish this sentence: "If the Patrol Method were important, BSA would . . . . ."

 

Can BSA, as a corporation, finish the sentence? Will it do so?

 

It would be a shame to fail without really trying to see if Scouting can flourish.

[Stosh]

TAHAWK,

 

I don't think there is sufficient paper and ink to fully explain all the dynamics that would go into defining the Patrol Method (PM). This is why the older basic training and even WB training all use the PM in their training so that the participants can learn it by doing it rather than just reading and hearing about it. It's kinda like childbirth. One can read up on all the books, go to lots of classes, collect up stories of what others experienced, etc. But when the baby comes, well, now you know. Until then it just wasn't real.

 

Until one actually starts doing the PM and letting it develop on it's own power of the boys experiencing it, no adult is going to understand unless they were in BS earlier and was fortunate enough to have a SM who used it correctly. Yes we have boys out there that have Eagled under the Adult Led, Troop Method type program and what are they going to do when they become a SM for their boy? And the problem continues on into the next generation.

 

About 20 years ago I made a concerted effort to start working on the Boy Led PM. As an ASM I didn't get much traction but the one patrol I was allowed to experiment with really had a great time. They were the older boys, they were engaged, and they all Eagled. I took on the role of a SM in another troop and went 100% BL-PM. There were doing some really great things. We went from 5 boys to 28 boys in less than 2 years. I was removed from the SM position because the boys were expected to do to much leadership in the troop. (Their words, not mine.)

 

Now I have started from scratch a new troop of Webelos cross-overs using the BL-PM. They are doing really well, catching on quickly and having a great time.

 

And so the myriad of woes brought out on this forum don't seem to be evident in my working with the boys. I don't know if it's because I use the BL-PM or because I'm extremely lucky. But until my luck runs out, it's 100% BL-PM all the way.

 

If one were to define PM to someone I don't think it would make much sense to them. Just like no two childbirths are the same, depending on the different boys involved, the PM is going to mean different things to different people. Some patrols won't have a dynamic style PL, maybe their PL is a more quiet, sensitive style of leader. They both work, but they appear different and function differently, but they are both PM patrols. If one were to write up a definition for PM, one would need a different definition based on every boy who ever was in scouts.

 

Stosh

[Sentinel947]

It's important to note that alot of Scout leaders do not take woodbadge, so scoutings current programmatic weaknesses cannot be laid on woodbadge.

[LeCastor]

When I first learned that there might be some changes coming along for Wood Badge, it was mentioned that so many of the same concepts are taught in NYLT. So those youth who participated in NYLT, whether as a "learner" or as staff, aren't interested in taking Wood Badge.

 

Sentinel's correct. Not that many Scouter's participate in Wood Badge when you look at the bigger picture.

[Stosh]

It's important to note that alot of Scout leaders do not take woodbadge' date=' so scoutings current programmatic weaknesses cannot be laid on woodbadge. [/quote']

 

Correct, and I don't know how much basic leader training has changed, but when I taught Scoutmaster Fundamentals, I was not the teacher, I was the Scoutmaster, and they were not the students, they were the "boys". They were experiencing the patrol method and thus they were exposed at least in their first training into the Patrol Method. WB only took it deeper and NYLT emphasized it at the training level what they were supposed to be getting in the troop.

 

I don't care if it's Basic Leader Training, WB, NYLT or any other program of the BSA, where is the Patrol Method emphasis? and why isn't it hammered in to the point where the participants take it home and use it? Once one starts using the Patrol Method in their troops, and only AFTER one starts using the PM in their troops will they begin to see how really easy Boy-Led becomes because the boys will teach themselves Boy-Led in a Patrol Method environment. The two together is quite a remarkable transformation for any troop.

 

Stosh

[LeCastor]

I have been an instructor for IOLS several times and I know that our council tends to emphasize splitting the "learners" into as many patrols as they can. Each patrol sticks together all weekend, cooking and camping. When I was the learner I know it was a lot of fun and I left feeling fired up about Scouting.

 

Earlier this year was I was asked to be the "Course Director" for Scoutmaster-Specific Training and it is SO dry. PowerPoint slides and lots of sitting around on your duffs. While I did stick to the format suggested by the council, I tried to inject as much PM as possible. I always recommend extra reading materials (GBB, duh).

 

Not trying to toot my own horn here but I feel like the learners appreciate the extra effort I make in these training sessions---IOLS, SM, or Wood Badge.

[SR540Beaver]

I'm always disheartened to read these threads. I've staffed 4 WB course and 2 NYLT courses. I've been an NYLT course director and WB backup course director and attended 3 course director conferences. The course directors conferences are required and bring together CD's from across the region for networking, training, best practices and to learn of upcoming changes to the course. Each CD signs a pledge to deliver the course as written. It is the BSA's best attempt to ensure that the course is being run correctly and the training materials are being imparted correctly and that a WB course is a WB course and everyone is on the same page across the nation. Are there some traditions or differences between councils? Of course there are. Everyone's resources are different, so they can't be identical in every way. But I am familiar with the syllabus and I assure you, the Patrol Method and servant leadership are front and center in the courses. They camp as a patrol, cook as a patrol, move as a patrol, sit in patrols in meetings and sessions. They make their own patrol flag and totem and rotate patrol positions thruout the course. The troop and patrol is modeled and followed thruout the course. It if isn't in the course you were in, they are doing it wrong and someone needs to say something to your SE or national. From my training experiences, I can't begin to see how anyone could walk away from WB or NYLT and not understand the Patrol method of servant leadership. Obviously, some of you have. Just my two cents.

[DuctTape]

I will accept the general premise of Beaveh's post. What needs to be considered then is why so many troops with trained leaders whether it be WB, SM specific, etc... seem to not function using the patrol method? A majority of the troops I have been involved with, had trained leaders, and the majority are not boy-led, nor using the patrol method. I don't think it is just my own perception as I have many parents (via my job) ask me about how things should be done in their kids' troops and it is obvious a few adults are running the show and not the boys.

[LeCastor]

Thanks, fellow Beaver! I agree that the patrol method is well modeled in Wood Badge. However, to answer the question of why so many Troops are adult-led, I firmly believe it's because adults have an inherent need to succeed and when they see the chaos of a teenager's Patrol meeting they freak out and take over. It's not that the PM isn't taught/modeled/encouraged at Wood Badge; it's that adults are so wired to make things go smoothly that they take the reins from the 13-year old PL when he doesnt do it "right". We have to hammer it home time and time again at every training we can--Boy Scout Troops are led by boys and mentored by adults.

[TAHAWK]

I recognize that my view is strongly shaped by Scouting experience as a Scout and a Scouter at a time and in a place where the Patrol Method was both understood and understood to be absolutely required --- where peer and organization pressure was brought to bear on any Scouter who did not "get it." In fact, Scoutmasters who failed to "get it" were replaced, one way or another. That was also a time when adult help was more available, so there was less pressure on BSA to tolerate violation of the rules of Boy Scouting.

 

I believe that while knowledge without experience is only information, good training can help both inform adults and persuade them to try to do it the Scouting way -- to get the experience. To that end, it would help if the training every adults is supposed to get - "basic training" - actually presented what the Patrol Method is supposed to be. The current syllabus, being used again this Fall, is not only boring but utterly fails to state what this "Patrol Method" thing is supposed to consist of. The section entitled "Working with Youth - the Patrol Method" lacks a single sentence on the Patrol Method. Instead, much is assumed and what is explicit is scattered through other parts of the syllabus. The syllabus should have been replaced by an improved syllabus (already in draft form), but that was not a high enough priority for the Corporation. So we have modified the syllabus. As per the old Trainer's Creed, we deliver the message BSA "intended" as we find it in BSA publications. (Interesting word, "use.")

 

SR, my point is that when adults see adults planning and leading in WB they may only see adults planning and leading. The only evidence given that youth can lead is the Venturers role in the group-forming session of WB3, and I know from talking to participants that many do not get the lesson. (Beaded WB'r three years post course: "Maybe your troop can be run by kids, but not the troop of idiots I have." ) When we fail to clearly communicate because "everyone knows" we may ignore the reality that not everyone actually knows. Not to mention the lack of the "absolutely required" message.

 

WB could be, and should be, much more explicit. The participants should be told what makes up the Patrol Method, that it is required, and that they should not be Scouters if they are unwilling to fully support the Patrol Method. Instead, one of "my" districts has a Scoutmaster of the Year for 2011 who, when given that award, had not allowed a PLC meeting in twelve years and whose "patrol members" could not say which "patrol" they had been assigned to..

 

Add the fact that many WB participants have little or no experience with Scouting and may not have completed basic training, and the results obtained are not surprising - a majority of troops in my two councils with beaded SM's that do not remotely offer Boy Scouting.

 

BSA wants to meet its goals. OK But I wish BSA could be convinced that strong Boy Scouts troops are critical to meeting its goals.

 

"If the Patrol Method were important, BSA could ........................."

[MattR]

SR540Beaver, I went to WB and it followed the national syllabus, they even told me they couldn't change anything. They illustrated patrol method in that there were patrols. They talked about leadership for adults, but not the problems associated with teaching leadership to scouts. The focus was not on patrol method. It was on adult leadership. There was little mention of working with scouts. There was a section on mentoring vs coaching but that was it.

 

If the focus was on patrol method then there are lots of important details they didn't mention. They did not talk about separation between adults and scouts or between patrols. They did not talk about trust or what eagledad calls growth. They didn't talk about how teamwork must precede servant leadership. They did not talk about how made up, abstract scenarios for training are useless for boys.

​

I tried to use what I learned. Smart goals, vision, start stop, arrows, and all that but it didn't do me much good. What has been working is asking my scouts and listening to Barry and Stosh butt heads. While amusing it's also true.

 

​I'm not claiming I know it. I even went back and retook SM specific training to see if there was something I missed. While I'm making good progress I have a way to go and still feel like I'm just bumbling around on my own. I'm dealing with angry parents, trying to teach ASMs while I learn, and spending a lot of time with the scouts. But what I've gotten from National's training has done me very little good in trying to change a troop that was mostly troop method into one that is patrol method.

[desertrat77]

- Outdoors

- No ticket (just like the original WB)

[TAHAWK]

- Outdoors

- No ticket (just like the original WB)

 

 

Where did you get the information that the "original WB" did not use tickets, whatever you mean by "original"?