cubmaster is lying on registration form about boy's ages

[Natalie W]

I was talking to a friend whose son joined another pack about how young our newest members are. They stated this is not allowed. All our Tiger cubs are Kindergarten children and all are 5 years old. Parents have confirmed this to me and a den leader for Wolf states that she has children who received their Tiger badge last year as Kindergarten kids who are now age 6 and in First Grade. When a group of us contacted council about our concerns we discovered that the Kindergarten kids were registered under incorrect birthdays. Not sure what to do now.

[Stosh]

Let the council worry about it now that they know about it. Until then have fun with the boys, they should be old enough now. If one has to repeat a year at a level, so what, just have a fun year instead of worrying about earning the awards. Just make it a win/win for the boys.

 

Stosh

 

[Papadaddy]

Stosh is correct. But it WILL become an issue if and when they fill out their Eagle applications and the birthdates don't match the Council's records. That is one thing they do look at to determine Eagle eligibility.

[Stosh]

Stosh is correct. But it WILL become an issue if and when they fill out their Eagle applications and the birthdates don't match the Council's records. That is one thing they do look at to determine Eagle eligibility.

 

I'm thinking that when they register for Boy Scouts, they will probably get another chance to correct the birth date issue. They can fix it now that the boys are old enough to be in Cub Scouts. They just got a freebie year out of the deal.

 

Stosh

[st0ut717]

This was probably a simple mistake on the cubmasters part. illegible or incomplete forms and he took a swag. This isnt little league where people fudge a bithdate to get a 13 yo on your 9-10 yo team to get a championship.

[qwazse]

Or, the cubmaster or committee chair manipulated the dates so they would only have to muck about with registration once for this group of kids.

 

Run a suitable program. You'll have to think about things like weather these boys are ready for resident camp or should they wait another year.

 

Correct the birth dates within the next year or so. That way the boys won't be pressured to cross-over to scouts too soon. Or -- this is highly unlikely -- a 17 year old won't have problems on his Eagle application because on the books the registrar thinks he's too old.

[Natalie W]

They are actively recruiting Kindergarten kids and telling parents this is OK. I could see it as a mistake or, as I thought, some rule I did not understand about turning 6 during Scout year but why are the birthdates then different for council? I think they really are fudging the birthdates to keep enrollment up: otherwise we would have no Tigers this year, 1 Wolf, 4 Bear, 0 Webelo first year, and 1 Webelo second year who is actually a 4th grader who will be 10 next month (so not even sure that is correct but he IS on track to earn AOL and cross over). Overall I think I agree with jblake47 that since council was told about the concerns we can let it go. At least that makes gives me comfort we are not doing anything 'illegal'. The actual council response we got was, 'we can only go by what the registration says and can't help it if people lie'.

 

 

Parents who know are mainly worried it would cause pack to be shut down. Or, about disaster scenarios that really aren't likely. The what ifs are plaguing us parents. the Cubmaster's boy actually crossed over to Boy Scouts 2 years ago. So, what if he leaves and new Cubmaster wants to change everyone to correct birthday? What if a 6 year old, First Grade Wolf gets lost in woods and makes national news and everyone questions his age and why he got registered?

 

I guess as long as parents (if they bother to question us, lie about the DOB then everything should be fine, well even if they don't and say it was a mistake, though it would be hard to justify a mistake by 7 of 13 parents). The members are from all over the place (different schools, grandchildren of the BSA leader, some live 10-20 miles from pack but come because they know BSA leader who lives in area).

 

They signed up 3 new boys yesterday: two are 5 years old in Kindergarten as stated by their parents when they introduced themselves and the boys. One of the new boys was transferring to Wolf from a different pack and was in Second Grade and met the correct age requirements. The mom said she was excited to learn their Kindergarten son could join too.

 

Anyway the Cubmaster tells the parents it is OK to be this way. That would be a mistake if they really were listing the kids correct birthdays and council missed it. It would also make since if the parents filled out application incorrectly (on purpose or by mistake) but if so then why do they tell everyone their kids are Kindergarteners.

 

All our Tigers are Kindergarten this year, Wolf is mix of First and Second grade boys age 6-8, Bear just happens to be all Third Graders (3 are 8 the whole scout season and my son turned 9 right away after the start), Webelo is mix of Third Grader and 4th grade (my son is actually older then both Webelo 1 boys and in class at school with another Webelo (who joined this year as a Bear but the pack switched him to Webelo). The parents of the 5 year old, myself and everyone were told it was OK to have Kindergarten/5 year olds in the pack. We do not 'hide' it. The den leader of Wolf knows who the first graders are. If you walked into our meetings and asked we would all tell you this and most would justify it using what we have been told: turning 6 during program year is allowed for Tiger rank.

 

 

I guess since council now knows what is going on we are covered. Or, if they don't care. 7 of 13 'mistakes' looks suspicious to me. In short best option is to shut up and go with it. or move to another pack if worried.

 

[qwazse]

First, tell folks to "kill the drama factory." If you lose a 6 year old in the woods, the BSA registration is the least of your worries!

Second you all can come clean with your district executive that you have a group of kindergartners whose parents (with a little help from the pack leadership) pushed registration through. Then ask if the district or council can help to plan suitable programs for the boys.

Thirdly, if you think you're going to have this problem next year, ask council if there's anything you can do about it to officially recognize those boys as BSA members. If not, ask your charter organization if you can operate a "pre-Tiger" program under their auspices.

[Natalie W]

Thanks, qwazse! I needed that for sure.

 

The kids do have a great time. The parents and leaders are nice and well intentioned. The young boys are sweet and thrilled to be scouts. Plus it is cute to see the Tigers falling asleep at the tables during den meetings, even last night when rest of pack is hammering away on a building kit!

 

We are a small pack and some of the leaders are really invested in keeping the pack charter that's been around for a long time. I think we are just panicking because our kids do enjoy it and have fun but that we also have this impression of Scouting at district/national level of being rigid and unbending. It was sort of 'unintentionally' let out of the bag/discovered about the DOB not being correct. So we panicked especially with all the trustworthy talk going on now as our pack is gearing up to learn the Boy Scout Oath and Law updates. those of us who know don't think the pack is really open to change because Kindergarten enrollment is probably the only way the pack is going to keep getting numbers for younger groups but scared it will impact everyone negatively if not corrected.

 

 

Yes losing a child would be least of worries!

 

IT would be especially hard to lose anyone in the woods, especially since the pack does NOTHING outdoors, unless it you count playing tag outside after the meetings (which is not allowed anyway as many parents have 10-20 mile drive and sleepy kids) or occasionally grilling hotdogs on a grill in the parking lot of our sponsor organization! In two years we have never done a camp out or real in woods hike. Actually for Tiger my boy got to count walking less than a block to the Firehouse visit as his hike with the den because he missed the official hike around the block that year. Many kids in our area join a larger pack (over 100 scouts) that does a TON of camping. Our pack is mostly an art club. My kid has special needs so we joined this small one for less chaos. Every den meeting is spent working from book or doing a kit of some sort. Almost nobody attends outings due to distance of many of our members from the pack location. Usually the local boys (the 4 Bears and 1 Webelo) are the only ones who show up to non-den meetings and generally we all do not all show up for same ones. I've been many outings (bowling was an awkward one) where my son is the only one who showed.

 

What you all are saying is 'it is not THAT big a deal'. Fess up and calm down. If we can keep the current members it shouldn't matter so much next year if we only manage 1 or 2 Tigers.

 

[Papadaddy]

A Scout is Trustworthy. Honesty matters.

[scoutergipper]

So I see that the dreaded "situational ethics" has reared its ugly head in this Cub Scout group. Today, it's looking the other way on a registration form, tomorrow maybe we're back to hushing up YPT violations. I would think a trial lawyer would have a field day with a unit that was purposefully submitting inaccurate information should there ever be an accident in the unit.

[Natalie W]

True, Papadaddy.

 

That is one of the reasons we were scared to bring it up, even within our pack. It seems like there would be a harsh punishment. But the message I'm getting is it won't be nearly as terrifyingly harsh as we parents imagined (firings, kicking kids out, liable suits, etc...) . And my city, while not Pittsburgh, does have the same district council as Pittsburgh (which is listed as qwase's location!) and that is comforting to know. It's good to know there are options that will allow kids currently enrolled to maintain and participate in some form of program without ruining scouting experience for them. Gives me confidence to at least ask about it and try to end the enrollment of kids outside the age range. Really if would like to stop doing it and that is the biggest concern for me along with how to handle the current group of kids.

 

thanks for the help everyone! I have asked help of another person I trust and will wait for that advice but this gives me more confidence and courage.

[st0ut717]

I think a larger concern is that the pack is an arts and crafts club. I think we lose ALOT of boys to this. please get them on at least day hikes. and a family camping trip. Once they transition to Boy scouts time to wake up and learning curve is STEEEP if they have little to no experience camping.

Try to get a den cheif from your Boy Scout troop to help.

[Papadaddy]

I don't think you need to worry about a "perp walk" in front of TV cameras, or anything like that. You haven't said (or I missed it) what your position is in the Pack? This is a contractural issue between the Chartered Organization and the Council, in that the CO agreed to deliver the BSA program as it is written (LDS units have their own "agreement" as I understand it). Your COR and DE need to get together and hammer out a solution to correct the birthdates in Scoutnet. Perhaps this can be done as the Tigers "age in". Not sure about how they will treat any advancements that were awarded prior to them being eligible for membership as they may be limited to what the computer will accept. Again, this can be hammered out by the COR, CC and DE. Your Cubmaster isn't the decider on any of this. I think with a humble attitude of repentance and a promise to do things correctly from now on is all that Council will expect. Your CO is the one who should be incensed about this, because the Pack has put them in an untenable position should some unfortunate accident occur to a scout who is not even eligilble to join yet. The BSA will run from you as fast as they can because it wasn't THEM who told the scout it was ok to join.

[meschen]

I doubt the DE will do anything other than a mild warning. They're judged based on recruiting numbers so they won't shoot themselves in the foot by kicking the boys out. Here are the issues you'll face:

1. As first graders, some of the boys won't have sufficient reading comprehension to be able to use the Wolf handbook. Not a big deal, but they would get more out of the program at second grade. From my experience, this should be a one time issue, since the Bear and Webelos hand books are not as big a step up in reading level.

2. As third grade Webelos you'll be skirting the Guide to Safe Scouting rules if you undertake any activities Webelos are allowed to do that Wolves and Bears are not.

3. Biggest issue: after finishing their Arrow of Light year near the end of fourth grade, some of your boys won't be 10 yet. This means they won't be eligible to bridge into Boy Scouts. At this point, their true ages are something their new Scoutmaster likely will not allow to be fudged. 5th grade is a rough year for retention. I would "fix " things before this point.

If I were stuck in this position, I'd put an immediate stop to recruiting Kindergardeners, let the first graders do a wolf year this year, and then next year, when the new 2015 Wolf program is rolled out, have them repeat the year as second grade wolves.