st0ut717 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Unless you're a deer apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 oh sentinel you silly boy If we want to get into the entire scout law debate and being a quality adult fit for leading a troop lets take the gloves off. How many Cubmasters and Scoutmasters are divorced? hmmmm, How many have conviction for various offenses? Many How many obese leaders do we have? How many have extra marital affairs? How many of those have happened on scout trips? How many BSA leaders have chosen scouting over their Family? We can go all day here. Every scout camp has a smoking policy and honestly I am glad smoking leader is there verses the troop not going on the outing. Far as the Tshirt at the race. ASM was on his own time and supporting a worthy cause. Far as the shirts and slogan go, geezus get over it. it was funny. Locally we have a Save the Tatas campaign for breast cancer awareness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel947 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 oh sentinel you silly boy If we want to get into the entire scout law debate and being a quality adult fit for leading a troop lets take the gloves off. How many Cubmasters and Scoutmasters are divorced? hmmmm, How many have conviction for various offenses? Many How many obese leaders do we have? How many have extra marital affairs? How many of those have happened on scout trips? How many BSA leaders have chosen scouting over their Family? We can go all day here. Every scout camp has a smoking policy and honestly I am glad smoking leader is there verses the troop not going on the outing. Far as the Tshirt at the race. ASM was on his own time and supporting a worthy cause. Far as the shirts and slogan go, geezus get over it. it was funny. Locally we have a Save the Tatas campaign for breast cancer awareness. Attack what I actually say, not what you think I'm implying. I didn't imply anything about anybody's "Fitness to lead a troop." If I've got something to say, believe me, I'll say it. Kudos to beating up an argument I didn't make. I hope your gloves didn't get too dirty when you dropped them on the ground. =P The thing is not that we perfectly measure up to the Oath and Law every time, because we won't, and our Scouts won't either. It's an impossible standard, it's also a subjective standard and it's ok to not measure up every second of our lives, because that's not possible either. We ought to strive to live the Oath and Law to the best of our understanding, knowing that others have their own interpretations of things. The BSA is vague about what everything means for a reason. I don't think the Race T Shirt is against the Oath and Law. Maybe a little crude, but I'm all in favor of some innuendo for a good cause. If it was going on some sort of Troop clothing, then I'd think it'd cross a line somewhere. Your statement about not mixing private life and Scouting is far too black and white, in my opinion (That means we are obviously free to disagree.) I do not agree with your statement. It's not a question of whether or not other Scouters or even ourselves break the Oath and Law from time to time, because we are all human and we will make mistakes, and that's part of life. Doing my best to not be condescending, nor to put words in your mouth, let me give you a scenario BD: (I find out that a Scout of mine was caught shoplifting. Do I: A) Counsel him about his choice, it's clearly not Trustworthy. I can help this Scout make better decisions in the Future. B) Our Private lives and Scouting lives are separate, therefore, I'll do nothing. I'd choose A. Does it make me a bit of a hypocrite? You bet! I haven't been 100% trustworthy my whole life. Somebody call National and get this Volunteer removed! =P. But I can help this hypothetical Scout develop his own morals and values. I think that's really important. If Scouting is not meant to help us make ethical and moral decisions in the future, then we are in an over complicated camping club. I love camping clubs, but if I had to pick a pure camping club, I'd camp with my college age peers, not 12 year olds and their parents. I don't object to what you do, you drink and smoke privately. (Your back porch is your private property.) You go to a really cheesy eating establishment with your friends. Those aren't immoral decisions in my opinion, but for some people, that might not make you the most appropriate role model for their kids. That's up to them to decide if they've got a problem with it and how to address that. I object to the wider philosophical point your statement implies. It lacks nuance. I think you oversimplified your broader thoughts for the sake of time but I'll let you explain your thoughts without putting words in your mouth. Sentinel947 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Porter Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Has the BSA come out against vaping yet? It is not smoking, it is not tobacco, but it is nicotine. I assume they do not have a policy aginst nicotine gum and patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imachristian13 Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Well I surely opened up a can of worms on all sides. Again, remember why I came here. To get other people's views BEFORE making any stink about this. Those of you that took that tack with me, thank you. Some commented on lightening up because it's good to have a leader instead of none or that I should volunteer to do it. I don't think I ever said otherwise. By the way, I have direct ties to the cause here as well so those who seemed to be questioning my right to comment on the provocative shirts - as if just being a human being wasn't enough reason to dislike the shirts - I've spent plenty of time in life coping with cancer and its effects thank you very much. Thanks all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I was a smoking scoutmaster. I tried to keep it away from the boys on campouts by waiting until they were off and running or going to the designated area when it fit into the schedule. Most of the boys knew I smoked and I was sure to tell them it sucked at every opportunity. Is your current scoutmaster a great example in this particular case, no, but perfection isn't a job description. As for the shirts, the breast cancer crowd uses a lot of racy stuff to draw attention to their cause. It's a curious thing. Like others have said if they were on their own time and not representing the unit then that's their choice. You'll get as many opinions on both issues as there are people on the board. Ultimately, the only question that matters is what do you think of it? Seems to me you have three options here: 1. Leave the unit for another unit with leaders who better match your values. Be prepared to be regularly disappointed. 2. Confront the leaders through the CO. Be prepared to step into the vacated roles and deal with drama. 3. Use the opportunity to reinforce your values with your son. Explain the struggles people face with addiction and how we all bear our own burdens. Explain that sometimes people use the ends to justify the means and that in the case of the t-shirts you disagree with the decision. Regardless of other people's actions you're still the parent so you set the tone for your child. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 As is often the case, there is the policy and there is what people think is the policy. Tahawk was kind enough to post the actual policy that can be found at the BSA website. Note that nowhere in the policy does it say "No smoking in uniform". Now an individual pack or troop might have that policy but good luck enforcing it if you want to keep volunteers. The policy does say that smoking may not be allowed at BSA activities where youth are participating which of course means that if no youth are participating (like perhaps at a committee meeting or an adult training course) smoking is allowed - though being courteous, there should be a designated smoking area. However, the BSA then sends mixed signals by having smoking areas at Summer Camp which brings up the question - "What is a BSA activity". Is it an entire meeting or campout or is it just the parts of a meeting or campout that the boys are actually particpating actively in something. Is sitting around a campfire just passing the time an activity? It seems the BSA is suggesting that Summer Camp is not a BSA activity in and of itself, but that it is made up of a lot of activities that don't neccessarily cover an entire day. The best thing to do here is just to suggest to the Scoutmaster, Kindly please (remember the Scout Law) and as the committee, that he try to refrain from smoking in front of the Scouts as best he can but understand that no one is ever perfect and no one should ever confront him if he smokes in front of the boys - we may not like it but after a period of time, lighting up a cigarette can become an automatic thing - no thinking involved so the smokers are likely to slip. As for the shirts, let's first stipulate that this was not a BSA activity - sure, Boy Scouts were volunteering but it's likely many other groups of people were as well. It wasn't organized by the BSA or by the Troop so it falls instead into the realm of community activity. I can understand how a young Scout could be confused by what he perceives as the mixed messages he's getting from his PL and ASM. This is a perfect time to start discussing what we all otherwise know as "The Gray Areas". I think all of us would likely agree that the T-shirts with their double entendres on them would be absolutely inappropriate for a Scout outing, or for school, a day out with the family - heck, a day out without the family at the local mall or wandering around town. But - and here's that gray area, there are very few things that are universally, 100% inappropriate (murder comes to mind). There can be times when something that would normally be seen as inappropriate and morally wrong might be considered appropriate to the situation and now is a great time to have the big C conversation with Scout Son - big C meaning Context. In the context of the event, those t-shirts are probably more appropriate to that kind of event, with humorous double entendres that the survivors are likely to understand and appreciate. A small number of people might not like it but that kind of crude humor is common at these kinds of events but it's a part of the fabric of these events now - its a silly way to help people take their minds off of their problems. A Scout is old enough to be able to start to understand these gray areas - what a perfect example to start off with. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel947 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Calico and DC hit the nail on the head I think. Couldn't say it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 A breast joke MAYBE in bad taste but immoral? NO! If you are so upset next year have the troop run as a troop and you volunteer to run and lead the event. Sorry - NO. BSA specifically prohibits their units from raising funds for any outside organizations. That is why the Troop can assist the runners - but NOT run as a Troop team. The ASM, and the Scouts on his team, were on their own time. They were not participating as Scouts. Did it ever occur to you that it might have been personal for both the ASM, and the Scouts involved? They might have all had a loved one touched by breast cancer. Personally, I would not blink at wearing a "racy" shirt if it helped to keep others loved ones from experiencing that particular horror. What you and your son conceive of as "morally straight" is not a universal definition that is, or should be, held by everyone. Bad taste, perhaps, I was not there, and did not see them. However, decrying it as not "morally straight" is, in my opinion, going overboard a bit. As for the smoking, TAHAWK posted BSA's stance on that - Adult leaders should support the attitude that they, as well as youths, are better off without tobacco in any form and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants. All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants. BSA gets rather particular with its wording. The word "may" is used when the units have a choice in the matter. The word "must" is used when they do not. Notice, BSA specifically states that you can smoke, but it should be done in a place located AWAY from the Scouting activity itself. Nothing to do about the shirts, but if the SM is smoking at Scout activities, in front of Scouts, I recommend talking first to the SM in a friendly, non-confrontational way. If that does not work, then go to the Committee Chair, or Charter Organization Rep with your concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Well I surely opened up a can of worms on all sides. Again, remember why I came here. To get other people's views BEFORE making any stink about this. Those of you that took that tack with me, thank you. Some commented on lightening up because it's good to have a leader instead of none or that I should volunteer to do it. I don't think I ever said otherwise. By the way, I have direct ties to the cause here as well so those who seemed to be questioning my right to comment on the provocative shirts - as if just being a human being wasn't enough reason to dislike the shirts - I've spent plenty of time in life coping with cancer and its effects thank you very much. Thanks all! let me clarify. I think you have a right to comment and dislike the t-shirts. i don't think you have a right to equate wearing of the t-shirts to the moral values of the ASM and the scout (PL) Which you did when you brought up morally straight in the OP. Calico Pennn is correct the context matters. wearing a shirt like that in the office would get me a fast trip to HR for sexual harassment. At the 5K you are seen as a support of womans health. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 How about this grey area. The cigar aficionado who likes to keep a unlit cigar in his mouth? Had an issue with a new BS parent this past weekend that did that a few times. He did go off a 100 yards or so behind the trailer and light up. Out from the woods pops up my Webelos and read him the riot act. Parent thought it was funny and told my wife. Same guy pulled out his flask a few times around the campfire. New parents may not know all the rules and how seriously they are taken. I had the ASM have a polite conversation with him at the Troop meeting last night. If it happens again we will have big problems, otherwise case closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Sorry - NO. BSA specifically prohibits their units from raising funds for any outside organizations. That is why the Troop can assist the runners - but NOT run as a Troop team. Hi could you provide a link to this reg? We are planing an at least 2 events that are banned' to help with the physical fitness of the troop. the way you state this is that we are banned from doing a 5k and a triathlon. I would like to see the original text. I tried Google but was not successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34427.pdf section 7 is I think what he is refering too. But participating in a 5k is not a violation. I think scoutnut is reaching here......How is paying the Kiwianis $10 a head to run in their race any different than paying bobs canoe livery to rent canoes? You are not soliciting others for donations to the 5k, you are paying participants. I see no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Porter Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Same guy pulled out his flask a few times around the campfire. Was it a BSA breast cancer flask? Because that would make this thread go full circle. http://www.cafepress.com/+bsa_initia...ask,1112068984 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 HI BD thanks. yes participation in 5k where another charity is the benefactor scouts ARE alloowed to run and this is actually incourged when reporting unit activities under https://servicehours.scouting.org [TABLE=class: bodyContent] [TR] [TD=class: subCategory_Other subCategory_HealthyLiving, align: left]Fun Run / Walk / Hike / Cycle[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: divider, bgcolor: #333366] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]To report information about a project, fill out the following information and press the Submit Report button. [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [TABLE=class: bodycontent] [TR] [TD=width: 65%] [/TD] [TD=width: 35%] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Date of service project[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Number of youth members participating in the project[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Number of youth who are not members participating in the project[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Number of adult leaders participating in the project[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Number of other adults participating in the project[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Total unit hours - including members and non-members (example: 10 people worked 2 hours = 20 total unit hours)[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Miles walked/run/hiked/cycled[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Which of the following organizations did you partner with on the project?[/TD] [TD]Hold down the Ctrl key to select multiple entries. Messengers of PeaceBSAdopt-a-SchoolUS Military FamiliesOrder of the Arrow LodgeBoy Scout campHabitat for HumanitySalvation ArmyAmerican Red CrossLocal food bank/food pantryLocal shelter for the abusedLocal shelter for the homelessLocal blood bankMeals on WheelsLocal medical center/hospitalCityCountyU.S. Department of HealthChurchSynagogueMosqueOther religious organizationSchoolRetirement centerGoodwill IndustriesCivic organizationLone ScoutService organizationHousing AuthorityAmerica Supports YouU.S. Forest ServiceNational Park ServiceOtherNo Partner[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]What organization/cause benefited from the event?[/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=colspan: 2] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Briefly tell us about your project (Do not use special characters in text)[/TD] [TD] Characters available: [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Note what orginization benefited from the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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