When are den dues considered excessive?

[KarenMcV]

Sentinel947,

 

​I agree that our DL should have gathered everyone`s opinion regarding the amount of den dues collected and I suggested to our DL that we revisit the idea as a complete den. I have found cost effective ways to work toward the achievements and I have offered to share these ideas with our DL as well. I am always happy and willing to help.

 

Finally, I am not opposed in any way to den dues if truly necessary. As a family, we ALWAYS join in and contribute more than our fair share in all that we do and we are happy to do it. In this case, I simply feel that the amount of the den dues is higher than necessary considering achievement requirements and the fact that we have already paid pack fees and that we pay for everything else separately.

 

Thanks for the welcome and good wishes Sentinel947 but I won't be staying on the site. There is a solution for everything and this too will work itself out! I do appreciate your kindness and your help.

 

Have a WONDERFUL day and God bless!

[KarenMcV]

Sidney Porter,

 

Thanks, but I'm not angry, bitter or burnt out. =0)

 

Have a SUPER HAPPY day! =0)

[KarenMcV]

Thank you Sidney,

 

Actually, my husband and I are considering asking to split the den and my husband becoming a DL. Maybe that would relieve some of the pressure from our current DL.

 

We pay separately for all events (swimming/pool time, sporting events, historical events, seasonal events, Blue and Gold and camping) above and beyond the $90.00 in fees.

 

Honestly, I am NOT opposed to den dues and I don't think anything should come out of the Den Leader's pocket. I simply think that it can be done in a more cost effective manner and I am always willing to help. =0)

 

Thanks again and have a GREAT day!

[King Ding Dong]

This forum is at a great deficite without the diplomatic expertise BD would have offered this new poster. This forum just isn't the same without him. RIP BD.

[Stosh]

When we do a lump sum / year approach to this issue, the $ amount sounds kinda high. Instead of a flat fee of $XX.XX why not break down the expenses and show that what you are asking for is reasonable. How many parents out there really know the cost a Pinewood Derby car? or a swim outing, or whatever else it is the pack is providing for that cost.

 

I'm thinking that a $XX.XX take it or leave it approach will open the door for some of the parents to opt for the leave it choice.

 

At FOS they come up with some arbitrary number of how much it costs to get a boy through scouting per year. Start with that number, then add registration, insurance, Boy's Life, awards, books, projects, PWD cars, outing fees, B/G expense, etc. all broken down so the parents can actually see what BSA is paying for, what the fund raisers are paying for, what the CO is paying for, and what the boy's family is expected to pay. One can add in the new necker, book, etc. and uniform costs as well so that the parents know up front before they even make a commitment whether or not they can even afford to have their boy in scouts.

 

I'm sure the committee treasurer can sit down and make up that brochure rather easily and no family gets blindsided by a "Mr. Smith, you have to pay $50 dues to the pack." especially just after they had an announcement on how successful their popcorn sales were for the year. I don't think anyone would balk at paying what's due, it is just kinda hard to pay with a significant check for something one knows nothing about. At every business these people go to, they get an itemized receipt of what it is they are paying for before they leave. I don't think it's too much to ask to provide the same courtesy to our boys' parents.

 

Stosh

[perdidochas]

Hello Friends!

 

I still consider myself relatively new to scouting, so I'm looking for some advice. One of my sons is just starting his third year of scouting (Bear). He has had the same den leader since joining Cub Scouts as a Tiger Cub. This year, his den leader sent an email stating that he discussed den dues with a few parents following a den meeting (we were unable to attend that meeting because my son was sick) and that they decided to implement den dues this year in the amount of $40.00 per scout. This amount is above and beyond the $50.00 pack registration fee that we've already paid. There are 12 scouts in the den so that would be a total of $480.00 in den dues. I looked through the Bear Handbook and from what I can see, only 7 of the 24 required achievements actually require, "materials" which appear to be very minimal. I think $40.00 per scout for den dues is excessive and unnecessary. What are your thoughts?

 

Sports registration for a 4 month season is more than $90. I think Scouting is a bargain.

[perdidochas]

PwB,

 

We have to pay all of our fees and dues up front. We have about 60 scouts in our pack. The $90.00 does not include camping or fees for outings. Our B&G is catered but we have to buy tickets per person and pay for all of that separately.

 

Does the $50 include Boy's life? If it does, then the Pack is only getting $14 a year from it. That barely pays for awards. If your den does any kind of arts and crafts, $40 is more than reasonable.

 

The only question is if you're selling popcorn? If you are, then maybe you have a slight point. Have you talked to local folks about it?

 

[perdidochas]

Baseball fan,

 

You are entitled to you opinion just as I am entitled to mine.

 

If I were a DL and I discovered that one of my parents was writing about me, I would become very enlightened about my performance and apologize to that parent for not creating a forum where parents could openly and honestly discuss topics within our own den.

 

No, you wouldn't. You like the rest of us would be angry, because the parent didn't address it directly. It's not human nature to like being criticized in public.

[qwazse]

KMcV,

Welcome to the forums ... where battered old scouters like KDD and myself opine from the cheap seats.

 

I would suggest that your responses have a pattern of applauding everyone who agrees with your idea of how a den should run and dismissing everyone who finds the $40/month outlay reasonable at face value. But, I also announce for varsity soccer games and hear a lot of chatter -- especially from private school parents who gripe about the entrance fees of our home field while their fields are rough-hewn, often unlit, poorly graded and barely lined -- and the concession booth (tent really) doesn't serve any coffee (let alone a decent brew: strong and hot) . Maybe they're being good citizens by running things on a shoe string and making do where they can. Their players come up strong and good as ours - so I've learned not to judge. When visiting their pitches, I try to buy their raffles and what goods from the concession as I can stand to eat.

 

But, from my seat at the home booth, between plays I'll heap high praise on our school's athletic department, the boosters who run the concession making sure there's a decent hot meal and home-made desserts, and anyone else who makes the evening capture a little grandeur for the sport ... even if my wallet is lighter for the gate fee and a tray of baklava for the senior night concession. At least they know to put the coffee on when I show up.

 

Find out what you're paying for. If you don't like the programs and materials that the DL plans to invest your $$ in, spinning off another Den is a good idea. However, if you do like his/her ideas, partner in. Maybe in lieu of dues, you have some materials or backstage opportunities that you can exchange for a month's fee.

 

Just try to accept that scouting is not a one-size-fits-all affair.

[King Ding Dong]

Q, go back to the original post. I believe the controversy is over $40 for the WHOLE YEAR. $40.00 a month better include some pedicures and a facial.

[Eagle94-A1]

#1 WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

#2 In regards to the cost of den supplies. Every pack does things a little differently. Some packs charge a lump fee that covers registration, BOYS' LIFE, awards, and supplies. Some packs charge weekly dues that covers everything. Some charge for registration and awards and nothing else. I know the pack I'm in only covers registration, awards, and a neckerchief at the end of the year. BOYS' LIFE is extra, and any supplies needed by the dens we have to come up with.

 

I try to tell the parents as far in advance as possible what supplies they will need, where to get them, and how much it will cost. Sometimes they actually tell us about sales and additional places to get them.

 

But some kits are hard to find and/or require a special trip to get. When I went looking for tool box kits for my bear den, National Supply no longer sold them, I could only find them through 1 company. I had to order them in bulk, and it was approx $11- $12 per kit. Since we lost our local distrubutor, PWD kits, Raingutter Regatta kits, and other supplies require either a 40-60 minute drive one way to get, or ordering them.

 

So I see $40 as reasonable.

[CalicoPenn]

Has the program changed that much that Dens don't do weekly collection of Den Dues every month? I've not been involved in the Cub Scout program for ages but I remember when one of the Denner's main jobs was to collect and record the weekly den dues from the members of the den. Back in the 60's and 70's. it may have only been a quarter a week, or 50 cents a week, but it was still part of the Scouts pay their own way lesson.

 

I think the question being answered isn't Karen's real question - her question isn't really "Is $40 per year too much" or even "Is $40 per year necessary" - I think most of us can point out where it might be neccessary and how it might be just the right amount if we had to. No - the real question Karen is asking herself is "Is another $40 per year really worth it?" Let's take a look at it from a purely financial point of view. Let's assume Cubs run from the first full week of September to the last full week of May - taking into account breaks for holidays and not including summer activities, let's assume that's 35 weeks. Let's also assume that out of those 35 weeks, 8 of those weeks are Pack meetings and the dens don't meet separately. That still leaves 26 weeks of den meetings. That $40 now becomes 1.53 cents per Den Meeting. Is that worth it? Pack registration is $50 per year - divide that by 35 weeks (because the pack registration does not just cover pack meetings, but the entire year, including den meeting weeks) and that cost is $1.42 per week. Added together, basic Cub Scouting will cost you $2.95 per week (not including of course, uniforms, Blue and Gold or extra field trip fees that may come up).

 

Is $2.95/week worth it? Let's compare to Soccer at $55 for 8 weeks - that's a cost of $6.87 per week. Which is the better value? Its completely up to you of course - from a financial perspective, $2.95 per week for cub scouting seems reasonable, especially with sports at $6.87 per week. Before you upset the apple cart and push for splitting the den (and you better really have a sense of the pulse of the other parents - they may all think the $40 a year extra is not a big deal if it is going to build a great Bear year program), ask the Den Leader if they have a rough budget which shows how they got to that number. Just because you weren't there when it was discussed (and frankly the Den Leader was being nice when discussing it - most would have just said "this is what it's going to cost - I'm not taking it out of my pocket, and the Pack won't reimburse me so this is the dues amount") doesn't mean something untoward was going on - ask for details - once it's explained to you, you might feel much differently about it. You might also discover that last year, this Den Leader ended up paying a bunch of money out of pocket and hadn't asked the parents to help out and decided this year that there had to be dues to help defray this years expenses. It's fine to be frugal - and if there are any major expenses that can be defrayed by doing something differently (like the example of the bird houses - if you've got the scrap lumber and your willing to create the kits for no cost, I'm sure that would be welcome) but do keep in mind that for most Dens, it's the stuff that nickels and dimes the leader that really starts adding up.

 

 

[Brewmeister]

I already responded to the duplicate thread created by the OP but having read this one...

 

HOLY COW!

 

KarenMcV, I've had parents like you in my den. Never happy about anything, constantly complain, aren't there when decisions are made, then grumble some more.

 

It's easy to complain. It's hard to actually make a positive contribution. So try making one--go help the DL if you think you can do it better or cheaper, but if you approach him/her anywhere like you've approached the people who ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION here, don't be surprised if you get a frosty response....

[qwazse]

Q' date=' go back to the original post. I believe the controversy is over $40 for the WHOLE YEAR. $40.00 a month better include some pedicures and a facial. [/quote']

 

And a few pies to toss at the neighboring crew's advisor!

 

Sorry for misreading. But seriously, some dens might go to plays, concerts, or ball games every month. So $40 vs. $400? Find out what you're paying for. If it's worthwhile, participate.

 

I forget if we paid dues for our bears, for a while, each parent just took it in rotation to bring the supplies for the topic being covered. One year, we tossed our webelos DL about $5/month for supplies. That allowed us to do a lot of neat stuff. One time, because I knew where such things could be found cheap, I was given a budget for model rockets for each boy ... plus some spares (hint: boys don't always build right the first time) and a launcher.

She reimbursed me in full. Even for the launcher and spare kits! Her bottom line: she knew it would be used again as scouts crossed over to the troop. And she was right. Years later, some venturers were doing count-downs with the same launcher. But, I could easily imagine that a parent would complain about their $$ "leaking" outside the den -- even though they would not never acquire half the gear I did on the same budget.

 

P.S. - Now is not a bad time to point out to little Johnny that things cost money. But some chores done around the house (dishes, dusting, folding laundry, taking out garbage) are worth you setting aside some coin for him.

[CalicoPenn]

Qwazse - great point in you P.S. about doing extra chores - it reminded me that not only were we to bring dues weekly to our den meetings, but we were also encouraged to do something to earn it - not just ask Mom & Dad for it, or break into the piggy bank, but to do extra chores or walk a neighbor's dog.