Stosh Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 It's always easier to sell one's soul to the Devil, after all everyone else is doing it. We just follow along blindly like lemmings. How's that for a leadership program? Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 KDD If the scout says "My relationship with god is not relevent the important thing is that I am at peace with myself" does he get advanced? I don't know the answer to that. BSA does not provide boundaries on what is permissible to ask a scout or what the required answers are. Personally I believe questioning anyone about their faith and passing judgement upon their response or lack thereof is a severe violation of Reverence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 "Ya know, you are wrong. The new program is not what it is currently. For example, the 2015 onward program for Webelos effectively requires PRACTICING a faith. Not just having it. You either earn the faith emblem or you are required to do 3 of 4 other reqs. Two of which are planning a faith service or practicing the faith for a month. That is very different than current requirements." FRED, I repeatedly raised a stink about the Webelos Requirement to participate in an interfaith worship service over on Bryan. That requirement was changed. I practice my faith by being Reverent and never questioning other people's faith. I think that is something everyone can do and fulfills the requirement. No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 "Ya know' date=' you are wrong. The new program is not what it is currently. For example, the 2015 onward program for Webelos effectively requires PRACTICING a faith. Not just having it. You either earn the faith emblem or you are required to do 3 of 4 other reqs. Two of which are planning a faith service or practicing the faith for a month. That is very different than current requirements." FRED, I repeatedly raised a stink about the Webelos Requirement to participate in an interfaith worship service over on Bryan. That requirement was changed. I practice my faith by being Reverent and never questioning other people's faith. I think that is something everyone can do and fulfills the requirement. No?[/quote'] KDD, you are correct in being reverent part, but BSA has the double edged sword of not only respectful of others' religion (reverent) but also the duty to God in the oath issue. That is a focus on the scout himself. It's still a major grey area in that a scout can do what he thinks is doing his duty to God and that has nothing to do with what a SM may think that duty is even if they are from the same denomination/sect of a religion. That's the really sticky part that most struggle with. So is doing one's duty to country only serving in the military? Running for office? Police/Fire departments? Got to work for the government at some point? Again what does duty to one's country mean? Just as confusing for country, but religion is a better knee-jerk hot button on the forums and in front of the public where one hangs out their laundry. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 For many people faith is a very personal and private matter. Why does the BSA seek to require public pronouncements and demonstrations of faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I don't know the answer to that. BSA does not provide boundaries on what is permissible to ask a scout or what the required answers are. Personally I believe questioning anyone about their faith and passing judgement upon their response or lack thereof is a severe violation of Reverence. But that is exactly what BSA is requiring us to do. 😆Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I guess any of these religions should be available for a scout to be reverent to. Including mathematics and Thor http://www.cem.va.gov/hmm/emblems.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 If one is a chef and never cooks, how is anyone to know and of what benefit to anyone is it? On the other hand if there is a chef who volunteers at the Salvation Army kitchen and makes fantastic meals for the homeless, one wouldn't need to even ask. But on the other hand some people are very private and keep to themselves. So be it, but what value is that to the world around them? It's kinda like a person joining a kayak club because they have a kayak in their garage. They haven't used it for 20 years, but there's a deep personal reasons why they don't. Have fun with that. People on membership lists like that are often called Dead Wood and that's not limited to religious organizations. So if the person shows it, there's no need to ask. If they don't, how is anyone to know? BSA is only saying it's okay to ask. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Personally I believe questioning anyone about their faith and passing judgement upon their response or lack thereof is a severe violation of Reverence. Not often I agree with you, but I think you are dead right about this. I also fear those who have "new evangelical faith" and feel an obligation of their new found faith to use their scout leader position to share their faith. I've seen it happen. In their well meaning ignorant naivete, they try to teach lessons to my sons that is opposite of what my church teaches. Does this mean that I need to keep my children in a Catholic faith as LDS keeps their children in LDS units? ============================================ The issue is that packs and troops recruit from schools and have children of many faiths. Your average den leader and scoutmaster are not qualified to discuss faith. So either there will be boundaries crossed or it will be given short shrift as we do currently. So Duty To God will be given expanded visibility to be ignored yet again. Even worse, we will justify ourselves around it. I have a good friend who believes in God, but does not feel any "Duty" other than to lead a good life. So his son would only need to follow the Scout Law for a week or month or other to fulfill requirements. Others with stronger faith would have to do significantly more. I can count 20 nights of camping. I can record when a Webelos scout visited a Boy Scout troop. Service hours, no problem. But Duty To God is not something I can evaluate. I'd rather it be left as is than be made more visible and continue to be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 If one is a chef and never cooks, how is anyone to know and of what benefit to anyone is it? On the other hand if there is a chef who volunteers at the Salvation Army kitchen and makes fantastic meals for the homeless, one wouldn't need to even ask. But on the other hand some people are very private and keep to themselves. So be it, but what value is that to the world around them? It's kinda like a person joining a kayak club because they have a kayak in their garage. They haven't used it for 20 years, but there's a deep personal reasons why they don't. Have fun with that. People on membership lists like that are often called Dead Wood and that's not limited to religious organizations. So if the person shows it, there's no need to ask. If they don't, how is anyone to know? BSA is only saying it's okay to ask. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I don't know the answer to that. BSA does not provide boundaries on what is permissible to ask a scout or what the required answers are. Personally I believe questioning anyone about their faith and passing judgement upon their response or lack thereof is a severe violation of Reverence. Inquiring about one's faith and judging it are two different things. I don't think BSA is in favor of the second part. If the boy is doing his duty towards his religion and is reverent towards others, there's no need to be doing any judging. Like I said it is okay to ask, but I didn't say it was okay to judge. If I ask a boy if he is doing his duty to his god, and he says he isn't because he has no god, then the discussion is no about his religion but why he is participating in a program that expects that. One can do that without judging the person. So he don't want/need Eagle, just an opportunity to hang out with his buddies. Nothing wrong with that. Doesn't need to be "god-fearing" to do that. All the boys go off to the interfaith service, he tags along sits quietly and just watches. He's done is reverent part. I have participated in worship experiences other than my religion. No big deal, I didn't get converted, I didn't die, and no one got bent out of shape or tried to convert me. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewmeister Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 BSA has the double edged sword of not only respectful of others' religion (reverent) but also the duty to God in the oath issue. That is a focus on the scout himself. Stosh And that troublesome Pledge of Allegiance thing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Does anybody have a link to the actual requirements? Have they gone into effect? I have heard new "faith" requirements are on the way for both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, and there have been some discussions on here about them, but they all seem to be in the abstract. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 If one is a chef and never cooks, how is anyone to know and of what benefit to anyone is it? On the other hand if there is a chef who volunteers at the Salvation Army kitchen and makes fantastic meals for the homeless, one wouldn't need to even ask. But on the other hand some people are very private and keep to themselves. So be it, but what value is that to the world around them? It's kinda like a person joining a kayak club because they have a kayak in their garage. They haven't used it for 20 years, but there's a deep personal reasons why they don't. Have fun with that. People on membership lists like that are often called Dead Wood and that's not limited to religious organizations. So if the person shows it, there's no need to ask. If they don't, how is anyone to know? BSA is only saying it's okay to ask. Stosh BSA has been repeatedly in the news for kicking out atheists. Now, it feels like BSA is kicking out non-practicing Christians. If this continues, who's going to be left in the end? How do we work with each other? Plus ... BSA is asking for more. It's more than just "okay to ask". BSA is emphasizing practicing faith. Webelos Duty To God requires the emblem or 3 of 4. Of those four, two are explicitly including a practicing element (planning / helping with church service, practicing faith for a month). So we either blow off and not take the requirement seriously or it becomes a new level of expectation. A large portion of the US population holds a belief in God, but are not affiliated with a church and do not feel driven toward organized religion. For that large portion of the population ... we're going to have to explain ... okay ... here's how you complete the requirement and it effectively means doing nothing. Just dancing around the requirement. I hate such requirements. they are worse than having no requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 And that troublesome Pledge of Allegiance thing too. No trouble. Just like a vintage uniform, the original works just as well for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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