Dealing with grubmaster issues

[Torchwood]

Getting back the OP... You say you have a laid-back and forgetful PL. Why isn't this being dealt with first? The PL is the foundation of a boy-led Troop. If you have a PL that refuses to lead, then he is not fulfilling the obligations of his POR, and your boy-led Troop will eventually crumble. If I were a kid in that Patrol, I would be asking for a new election pronto. Next, cooking is a requirement for advancement through FC, and then for two Eagle-required MBs. How are the boys in that Patrol doing in that regard? Are they earning those MBs, and advancing to FC? If not, why not? I understand that Advancement is a method, not a mission. But just statistically speaking, there has to be at least one boy in that Patrol that is the least bit interested in earning their Eagle. If boys in that Patrol are not advancing, are you at least having the occasional SMC with them? Seems like you need to hit this issue from every possible side, or you will have parents breathing down your neck. Better to have answers already should the phone calls and/or emails start.

[CalicoPenn]

It's not just a grubmaster issue, it's a leadership issue - the leader's aren't following up. The SPL shouldn't be waiting until the gathering in the parking lot to be checking in with the PL's to make sure the patrols are ready to go. The PL's shouldn't be waiting until the last minute to make sure the members are ready to go. The grubmaster shouldn't be waiting until the last minute to let the PL know they might not meet the deadline to buy the food.

 

But it's also more than a leadership issue - it also sounds like a commitment issue - have you considered that the older scouts in the patrol (and troop) may be waiting until the last minute because they haven't really committed themselves to going on the outing until the last minute just in case something better comes along?

 

So what do you do? You carve out some time at the next troop meeting or the next campout to have a friendly touchstone chat with the older boys that are starting to fade away to remind them that they need to start making a committment to the younger boys in the Troop and do the work they've promised they do.

 

But that's only part of it - it's one thing for a patrol to have missed purchasing or forgotten to pack an ingredient - 9 times out of 10 it's easy to work around it (though if your menu calls for egg frittata and they've forgotten the eggs, that could be a more interesting challenge). But, if you discover that the grubmaster never got to the store, or never showed up, then one of the cars makes at 15 minute stop at the next convenient grocery store so that the patrol can purchase their supplies - you may need to front some bucks, but who hasn't been there. Then you have the chat with the PL and SPL on how to prevent this in the future.

 

The adults always had peanut butter, jelly and bread available - but not to supplant an entire weekend's worth of food - it was there for emergencies - raccoons got into the food box or a major rainstorm soaked all the wood so we can't get a cooking fire going, or the dutch oven supper got accidently dumped into the fire. It was there until a resupply run could be made (and one was always made if needed).

 

 

There is one other question I'd like to answer - the question is why would the parents come to the Scoutmaster about such a problem. I'll be glad to answer that - because, despite being boy-led, the Scoutmaster is ultimately responsible for the well being and safety of the lads at the campout. Not the SPL, not the PL, not the ASM - the Scoutmaster. If you're my sons Scoutmaster and you think letting my son not eat or feeding him ramen or PB&J's for an entire weekend because someone in his patrol failed at their task is perfectly ok then you are in for one heck of a contretemps when I show up at the IH's door demanding your removal for failing to act responsibly.

[Stosh]

And just how far will that fuzzy logic get one? No food... okay, no one's going to starve, but they will be uncomfortable for the weekend. Some food missing... okay how much is "some", no one's going to starve; but they will be uncomfortable for "some" part of the weekend.

A bit of food missing.... okay, how much is "a bit". etc.

 

So at what point does one call on the IH to remove the SM?

 

One of the goals, at least in my book, is to teach the boys responsibility and make functional use of the positions of responsibility. If the SM is responsible, then what room is there left for the boys to be and learn responsibility? The SM is the ultimate person responsible, i.e. the ultimate safety net. All bucks stop at his desk and so the boys don't worry about it, it can never be their fault because they are not responsible in the long run, the SM is.

 

Too many SM are out there that will not let go of responsibility and let the boys have a hand at it. They are the ones complaining about boys not fulfilling their POR's and mentoring the young boys in leadership skills that they never learned themselves.

 

I personally have no sympathy for SM's that fall into this predicament. I don't run a program that way. Yes, I have been removed as SM for exactly what CalicoPenn is talking about. The CC informed me the reason I was asked to leave is because I expected "too much leadership from the boys". Guilty as charged! Since my removal, most of the boys have quit and the number of adults running the show out number the boys. Can we say Webelos III?

 

The troop I was associated with before that had a SM who ran everything with an iron fist. He too, has been removed from the SM position. His WB and Silver Beaver didn't do him any good when it came to his troop.

 

If one spends all their time worrying about where they fall on the fuzzy logic spectrum, they aren't going to have much time left over for the boys. Coddle or challenge the boys, it doesn't matter. The range of Eagle talent is reflective of how we as SM's have done or not done our job.

 

Stosh

[CalicoPenn]

Sorry Stosh - there is a big difference between policy/program disagreements and a Scoutmaster abrogating his responsibility to the boys health and welfare - your individual opinion may be that "it's fine if a boy misses a meal or two, or only eats ramen at the campout because one of his patrol mates failed to do their job" but that's not going to be the opinion of the majority of parents who are trusting that while they are on an outing with you, the Scoutmaster, the Adult in Charge, that you will be keeping an eye on the boys and will make sure that they are safe, healthy, and fed.

 

 

[O'Scouter]

At our troop all the patrol grubmasters, the SPL and the SM or ASM meet at the grocery store the Thursday before, along with whomever wants to tag along, usually younger scouts. They like to have a say in what kind of bread or cheese or gatorade is bought( marshmallows or no marshmallows in the hot chocolate?). We split into groups, get everything on the list, SPL goes over the lists with the grubmasters, (pointing out possible missing items or extras they may want, or budget issues) SM pays with troop card and food is divided and brought to the scout garage (has a fridge) or to the home of a predetermined person to be brought to the campout. That way everyone is accountable, under the supervision of the SM and SPL. It works, and it helps the boys learn to be organized accountable leaders, with immediate feedback and support when they go wrong. I haven't seen many troops that do this.

[Stosh]

If that be the case, then what's the sense of having boy-led or patrol-method? Everyone just follows along with what the all-knowing wise sage SM tells them to do. No leadership required, just follow his directions so that mom and dad don't get upset. Don't worry about a thing, the SM has it covered. He has a whole cadre of ASM's that will quickly respond to your every whim and want and you'll be safe and sound throughout this little activity. Don't play with fire unless an ASM is present at all times. Keep away from the axe yard unless an adult is present. Mr. ASM#4 will be doing the cooking tonight because we don't want anyone to get sick.

 

I know some of you older boys would like to go off and do something special by yourself, but at least two adults have to be there to keep you safe at the state park campground.

 

Oh Little Johnny didn't pack any smores? Not to worry, Mr. ASM#17 has the troop credit card and will run down to the local convenience store and take care of that.

 

Seriously? Where's the adventure in all of that. We promised the boys a lot more than Webelos III, or in this case Tiger Cubs VI.

 

Sorry, but if I inconvenience anyone, that's too bad, if I see symptoms of hypoglycemia, diabetic coma or insulin shock, I'll step in, but I'll know that before we leave because I will have done my due diligence by knowing my boys and what they can and can't do safely. Growing up isn't always a pleasant experience, but they need to start learning sometime and the sooner the better.

 

In this situation where the GM forgot the food, if I was adhering to a health and welfare concern, my first and most important priority is to remove the GM from the troop so that he would never again endanger the others in the troop. End of discussion, no appeal. zero tolerance for such an unsafe practice. He might as well have threatened his buddies with an axe.

 

Apart from the sarcasm, there's an underlying bit of truth to much of what is posted. Maybe not to that extreme, but I'll guarantee everyone that there is some parent some place quietly nodding their head in full agreement with me.

 

I have been an adult "chaperone" for youth groups for 40+ years and I have seen a ton of boys and girls grow up to be fine adults. Just this afternoon I had a Facebook conversation with a fella that reminisced about an event that happened in 1978. He remembered exactly what I was talking about after 30+ years.

 

Yes I have had to address diabetic issues, I have had to deal with major bleeding from cuts, burns to the hands and arms, and done the crash course of epi pens long before they were legal for people to use on other people.

 

I have been accused to being harsh, tough, uncompromising, and a whole lot of negative things by parents throughout my life, but never unsafe or dangerous to the health and welfare of the people in my charge.

 

Just remember that if Little Johnny doesn't bring the food for the weekend, the easiest solution to the whole problem is to just turn around and go home, the activity is over. If some parent wants to step in and take over, more power to them. I guess I wouldn't want the responsibility of worry about their health and safety knowing I have older boys that can't remember to even bring food for the weekend.

 

As for adults that are worried about whether their child is properly fed for the weekend, just sign up as ASM#17 and be in charge of the troop credit card.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

At our troop all the patrol grubmasters' date=' the SPL and the SM or ASM meet at the grocery store the Thursday before, along with whomever wants to tag along, usually younger scouts. They like to have a say in what kind of bread or cheese or gatorade is bought( marshmallows or no marshmallows in the hot chocolate?). We split into groups, get everything on the list, SPL goes over the lists with the grubmasters, (pointing out possible missing items or extras they may want, or budget issues) SM pays with troop card and food is divided and brought to the scout garage (has a fridge) or to the home of a predetermined person to be brought to the campout. That way everyone is accountable, under the supervision of the SM and SPL. It works, and it helps the boys learn to be organized accountable leaders, with immediate feedback and support when they go wrong. I haven't seen many troops that do this. [/quote']

 

On Thursday the grubmaster is out there at the grocery store, usually with a parent that gave him a ride and he picks out the food, gets a receipt and takes it home and processes it for the event. That's his job, that's why he's the GrubMaster.

 

On occasion he might have a boy that is working on T-FC requirements that needs mentoring and he will take that boy along and help him with what he needs to learn for his advancement, then makes sure the rest of the patrol food is acquired and processed.

 

The GM knows the boys in his patrol and has acquired recipes that tend to go well with his patrol members. He is careful and keeps records of costs to make sure that what the boys are getting charged for is what they get in quality food.

 

He works closely with the QM to make sure the appropriate equipment is going to be showing up at the event, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Come meal time, HE is in charge of the patrol. At this point he is running the show. He dictates the roster and after all the boys are taken care of he eats. While he eats, he has delegated who's doing the clean up and he monitors that.

 

Afterwards he makes sure the QM gets all the equipment back, makes sure left over food is taken care of, non-perishables are stored properly, and he works with the patrol scribe to turn in receipts and makes sure money is returned to whoever purchased the food to begin with.

 

If one has no one after 2-3 years that can pull this off in each of the patrols, they have basically been wasting the boys' time in the troop.

 

Yes, it's a big job. No, one can't get POR credit for it. Yes, it's an excellent leadership training tool. Yes, in my new troop of 11 year olds, I have two boys vying for the spot of GM in the patrol.

 

Seriously? With a boy trained in all aspects of GM, how in the world could they ever forget to bring the food? Take care of your boys! doesn't apply only to the PL and APL, everyone with a job in the patrol needs to be a functional leader in their area of expertise. At sometime during every event, every member of the patrol will need to step up at their assigned time and lead the patrol, PL and APL for camp set up and tear down, then be ready to assist as needed any other patrol member with their leadership. GM at ever meal, same for Chap Aide as well as am and pm devotionals, Scribe with the finances and records, QM with equipment planning, loading and unloading. If every leader functions as they are supposed to, then you have teamwork. Otherwise all one has is a headache trying to do it all yourself. This is why I don't do, or even need to do the safety net issue very often, if at all.

 

So how long is the GM's tenure? As long as he wants it to be and the PL leaves him there. When he tires of it or wants to do something else, he is responsible to train someone to replace him before he goes. He never leaves a hole behind him, otherwise he's not taking care of his boys.

 

So, what's the role of the SM and SPL in this patrol-method process? Stay out of it and let your boys lead themselves, that's why they're there learning.

 

Stosh

[O'Scouter]

I have definitely heard the arguments that you put forth. We have been involved in 3 troops over the course of our boy scout experience as a family. This one is the most adult-accountable troop. We still consider ourselves boy lead because while SM or ASM are at the grocery store, we hang out at the front and wait for them to work it out. We also meet with the spl once a week and work out the agendas for forthcoming meetings and offer feedback at that time, but SM and ASMs are all in an adjoining room for much of the meetings discussing various issues with parents, we have a couple of folks who bring coffee and cookies or something. For the most part, parents are kept separate. I think the boys do better, get further when they are given more guidance. I have seen some of the disorganized boy lead lord of the flies remakes and they aren't for the faint of heart..and I'm too old for that kind of stress. The boys do more,better cooking. Dutch oven meals rather than ramen or canned soup, which I've seen a lot. It suits us.

[Stosh]

There's nothing wrong with adults giving boys a ride to the grocery store when they ask for one. There's nothing wrong with boys asking for help cooking a new recipe. There's nothing wrong with the boys asking for help on anything for that matter. As a matter of fact all patrol members are taught that when they get into a tight spot, they have their PL and APL there to ask for help from. If the PL/APL are stumped with an answer, they have the SPL/ASPL. If they are stumped as well, then the SPL asks for assistance from the SM.

 

The way I set up my understanding of the troop for the boys is: PL is the highest authority in the troop/patrol. Always go to him first for any help you may need. He can instruct you, guide you, mentor you, whatever it is, that's what he's there for. If the PL needs help beyond his capabilities, i.e. Little Johnny didn't come back to camp and is out somewhere by himself, he has the SPL to turn to, SPL can call in other PL's and organize a search party for Little Johnny.

 

If it's a major issue that the SPL is having difficulties with, one of the boys showed up with a bazooka at summer camp. Okay, now it's time to talk with the SM for some help.

 

Notice that regardless of the position of leadership any of these boys hold, they are all expected to HELP the next boy UP the chain of authority. PL at the top, he "takes care of his boys". They're the ones to be benefiting from the program. He helps his boys get the most out of Scouting. Then there's the SPL. He HELPS the PL's be successful. And of course when asked for help, it's the SM/ASM step in and help/mentor/suggest to the SPL. Carrying it further. Isn't idealistic to have the CC HELPING the SM be successful and the Committee HELPING the CC be successful?

 

This is why I turn my org chart upside down and the boys figure it out VERY quickly.

 

This is why I had my PL (11 year old scout) bring one of his buddies back in the middle of the night at summer camp from Wilderness Survival because the buddy was homesick. I was caught between a rock and a hard spot. This homesick boy (11 year old boy) would be all by himself in camp with the two adults. The PL said, he came back knowing he would miss out on getting the Wilderness Survival MB, but it was okay because he had to take care of his boys. The two boys went off to the tent and that was the end of the discussion and problem.

 

I have run a lot of 16 year old boys through scouting that would never do that for a buddy because they know nothing about real leadership and "helping other people at all times."

 

Helping other people at all times? Isn't that the organizational structure I just described?

 

Stosh