Dealing with grubmaster issues

[Basementdweller]

ah come on sentinel if your boys can't figure out the solution to forgotten food they deserve to starve.

 

 

solution 1......don't admit there is a problem and go hungry. A lesson they will never forget.

Solution 2.....Realize they have a problem and got to the spl asking for guidance.

 

 

Seriously, I would never let a patrol starve. But I am not going to out and cover their back by bringing food because I know they forgot it. What is the lesson in that? Oh we don't have to worry because the SM has us covered.

 

Safe fail right?

 

But the OH crap we forgot to bring food lesson followed by the problem solving, pride swallowing, admitting a mistake and asking for help is a decent lesson to teach.

 

BTW, why would the parents be angry with me? Because the SPL didn't over see the PL who failed to appoint a grubmaster or come up with a menu and buy food??????

 

 

The monthly campout process never changes.

 

 

[Sentinel947]

ah come on sentinel if your boys can't figure out the solution to forgotten food they deserve to starve.

 

 

solution 1......don't admit there is a problem and go hungry. A lesson they will never forget.

Solution 2.....Realize they have a problem and got to the spl asking for guidance.

 

 

Seriously, I would never let a patrol starve. But I am not going to out and cover their back by bringing food because I know they forgot it. What is the lesson in that? Oh we don't have to worry because the SM has us covered.

 

Safe fail right?

 

But the OH crap we forgot to bring food lesson followed by the problem solving, pride swallowing, admitting a mistake and asking for help is a decent lesson to teach.

 

BTW, why would the parents be angry with me? Because the SPL didn't over see the PL who failed to appoint a grubmaster or come up with a menu and buy food??????

 

 

The monthly campout process never changes.

 

 

 

So when they go to the SPL, what does the SPL do about it?

 

In my ten years of Scouting, believe it or not no patrol has ever forgot to bring food. Sure they forgot to buy a piece of a meal, Pasta with no Pasta sauce kinda thing, but never forgotten a whole weekend worth of food.

[Basementdweller]

Don't know? up to the SPL. He handles everything he can and when something is beyond his ability he approaches the SM, that is how it is supposed to work.

 

I am not the Tyrant or Iron fisted scoutmaster, the boys have no problem approaching me to borrow gear or ask questions, heck more scouting takes place in my backyard than the CO any week. If the SPL failed I am sure one of the other boys would go over his head and come to me with it.

 

I have never had a patrol forget food either.

[Stosh]

Why is the SPL taking heat for an inept grubmaster? Maybe it's time the grubmaster start doing his job. A scout is trustworthy and this grubmaster is not even in the ballpark. The buck stops at HIS desk. Next step. PL reassigns grubmaster responsibilities to someone who will do the job.

 

Problem solved.

 

It's a patrol problem... no one else's.

 

Instead, one kid screws up and the whole troop and it's adult leadership goes into a tail spin. Serious lack of leadership at all levels here. Some patrol member running off to whine to the SM? Seriously? Making Mountains Out of Molehills 101. This problem should have been completely addressed while the boys were in the NSP, not 2-3 years later. Maybe it's time for some leadership training to help this troop become functional. Back when I was Webelos I and II DL, I had a more functional group than this patrol with a screw-up grubmaster.

 

Stosh

 

[Sentinel947]

Why is the SPL taking heat for an inept grubmaster? Maybe it's time the grubmaster start doing his job. A scout is trustworthy and this grubmaster is not even in the ballpark. The buck stops at HIS desk. Next step. PL reassigns grubmaster responsibilities to someone who will do the job.

 

Problem solved.

 

It's a patrol problem... no one else's.

 

Instead, one kid screws up and the whole troop and it's adult leadership goes into a tail spin. Serious lack of leadership at all levels here. Some patrol member running off to whine to the SM? Seriously? Making Mountains Out of Molehills 101. This problem should have been completely addressed while the boys were in the NSP, not 2-3 years later. Maybe it's time for some leadership training to help this troop become functional. Back when I was Webelos I and II DL, I had a more functional group than this patrol with a screw-up grubmaster.

 

Stosh

 

Whoa there. BD and I are talking theory more than anything else here. I think it's a good conversation to have and it apparently happens in other troops. So it's worth talking about so other Scoutmasters can learn from it. That's what we are all here for right?

[Stosh]

 

Whoa there. BD and I are talking theory more than anything else here. I think it's a good conversation to have and it apparently happens in other troops. So it's worth talking about so other Scoutmasters can learn from it. That's what we are all here for right?

 

My comments are directed to the heart of the problem. How many problems do we face in the troops because of the way we deal with it. If a patrol has a problem the PL handles it. That is as far as this going without food issue should have gone. Instead, we have the SPL stepping in an dumping on the PL for not doing his job, when feeding the patrol was not his job to begin with. The the adults come flocking around with their safety net and cover everyone's bases and mitigate the problem and never sit down and deal with Mr. Grubmaster who made this whole dog and pony show possible in the first place. In "theory" shouldn't the lesson be, A Scout is Trustworthy and how does that apply to my responsibilities to my buddies in the patrol? I'm QM and I can't make the outing for the weekend so why should I worry about whether or not every one that can go has a tent, and a camp stove that works, and this and that? If I'm Grubmaster and can't go, why should I be held accountable for the rest of the patrol's food, let someone else do it.

 

Allowing this untrustworthiness to go unchecked is why some troops seem to harbor a lot of problems. Other threads have indicated over and over again how they can't get their boys to "fufill" their POR's without a ton of rules and regs and threats and warnings and.... and... and....

 

I hear parents discipline their children.... One! I'm warning you.... Two, you better not let me get to three.... and finally the kid obeys. I was raised in a home where discipline was dished out..... BAM! What happened to One????? I learned very quickly what worked and what didn't.

 

So what happened to the Grubmaster in all this? The "theory" is to deal with the cure of the disease, don't just treat the symptoms.

 

I'm a firm believer that a lot of what goes wrong in troops is a result of the adults not focusing in on the real issues and run around just putting out fires here and there.

 

1) Is the PL trained well enough to select a functional Grubmaster?

2) Is the Grubmaster well versed in his duties and responsibilities under all circumstances?

3) Is the Grubmaster doing his job for the patrol or only for himself?

4) Is the PL capable of handling a situation where the Grubmaster fails at his job?

5) Did the boys pick a PL because he could do a good job or because he was popular?

6) Did the SPL train the popular PL so he could do a good job?

7) Did the SM expect the leadership of the troop to actually be functional?

8) Did anyone really learn anything from this experience or does it have the potential of repeating itself in the future?

9) Who has the responsibility in this whole fiasco? The Grubmaster? or the SM? Is the troop boy-led or adult-led?

10) Who has the authority to fix it?

 

Does anyone ever really sit down and discuss it with their boys on this level?

 

When all hell breaks loose like this, theory is great, but I'll settle for some practicality along the way too.

 

When confronted with a problem like this, the challenge set before us as adult leaders is to say exactly what you said, "Whoa there!" "What's going on?" But that doesn't happen, instead everyone jumps into a frenzy with solutions to the problem!!! That's the job of the boy leadership! And we as adults cover up the symptoms and the boys learn nothing, except maybe next time something goes wrong, don't worry, the adults will fix it.

 

Stosh

[Basementdweller]

geezus blake fricken relax.

 

I don't see anywhere in my musing that the SPL and PL are in trouble or getting heat for anything?????

 

You statements are completely full of hot air. Puff your chest all ya want but it doesn't solve the issue and if you truly have a boy led and run troop this stuff will happen.

 

So the boys arrive at camp friday night and get ready for cracker barrel and realize they have no food. Exactly what happens.

 

The grubmaster goes to the PL with the "I forgot the food story". The brainstorm, point fingers a bit and then the PL realizes he needs help and goes to the SPL, That is what is supposed to happen, RIGHT? The SPL works the Problem and comes to the conclusion it is problably beyond something he can deal with so he comes to the SM with the issue. Chain of command right?????

 

 

Or do you discourage your PL from going to the SPL or ASPL and asking for help when he needs it? Not how my unit works. the PL runs his patrol, if something is beyond his skill, knowledge or means to deal with he goes to the ASPL and the process repeats and if no resolution to the SPL and it repeats again.....The SM is the final stop.

 

 

 

I am guessing that the grubmaster and assistant will go to town and get food for the campout.

 

 

 

 

Again this was not my troop forgetting food. But simply a discusion of what if.

 

[Stosh]

First of all this situation would never have happened in my troop either because long before one got to the worse case scenario, we would have dealt with the issue of no food well before it got this far.

 

I have had GM's forget a cracker barrel or some ingredient for some meal or maybe a whole meal, but not ever having no food at all for the weekend.

 

So the GM screwed up Saturday night and doesn't have any food for that meal. It's up to the PL and GM to work it out. They have first option to solve their problem. It's a patrol problem, not a troop problem and definitely not an adult leader's problem. If the boys are well versed in basic problem solving, a good skill for leaders to develop, then that's all the further it gets 99% of the time. Remember these are the older boys, they should be able to handle this.

 

Heck, on any given outing, I have more food smuggled into backpacks that they really don't need much food for the weekend anyway.

 

That 1% of the time they then approach the SPL who's another head to work on a solution. (SENIOR PL, meaning he has the experience and may have faced a similar problem like this before.) I'm thinking that in reality most troops bring far more food than they eat anyway so a bit of passing the hat or having the patrol split up a bit to cover the meal would be a valid option. My boys would be mortified if they had to go to the NSP and say as leaders they screwed up so bad they have nothing to eat. I'm thinking the answer they would get would be, when we're done eating, we'll bring over what's left and you can come do our dishes in return.

 

I can't imagine boys getting to the worse case scenario, even theoretically, and if they do, I'm thinking the GM screwed up almost on an intentional level.

 

Okay, come next meeting, what's the PL going to do to keep this situation from ever happening again? I don't see this as ever getting out of the realm of the PL, who in my troop is the highest ranking officer in the troop. He has total authority to take care of his boys in his patrol. If he needs help, he has the SPL to assist him if necessary. PL is selected/drafted/elected/whatever, but the rest of the officers in the patrol are assigned by the PL. I would have a new GM in place and trained before the next outing if I were the PL.

 

So where do the adults fit into this scenario? They don't.

 

Think about it, what patrol doesn't have a loaf of bread and peanut butter as a backup? If not where's the Be Prepared that we teach? This is not an issue that adults need to jump to the rescue.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

1) Okay, think about it. How much food did you get on the OA ordeal weekend? Knowing that the adults can relax.

 

2) If the adults bailed out the boys because they forgot a key ingredient, or a meal, surely they are going to expect the adults to bail them out if they don't bother to get food at all. But if the boys didn't get back up from the adults and missed an important ingredient or a meal, the last thing on their mind would be not having something to eat for the weekend.

 

3) I don't make a very good Chicken Little.

 

Stosh

 

[MattR]

I'm not sure what this argument is about, but it's all relative. I got an irate email today that included the line "this boy led troop idea is fine, but ..." and it went on to describe how brilliant their child is and how one of the parents need to be on every campout to ensure their son has an exciting, safe, time. And they want to find out who is organizing the events to make sure it's done right. And, they never volunteer. Teaching the adults seems to be a lot harder than teaching the scouts.

[scoutergipper]

Teaching the adults seems to be a lot harder than teaching the scouts.

This is the crux of the matter, and sometimes it applies to registered leaders as easily as to Troop parents. Many Adults see themselves as problem solvers in general, and most specifically for their kids. When they first join, Boy Scouts (in their parents eyes) are still "babies" and need to be looked after and protected, just as they have been doing for the past 11 years. Some parents "get it" right away, or can be weened off their habits. Others require a tougher approach and some simply are not willing to bend to the reality of the Scouting program. It's hard work.

 

[Sentinel947]

I'm not sure what this argument is about' date=' but it's all relative. I got an irate email today that included the line "this boy led troop idea is fine, but ..." and it went on to describe how brilliant their child is and how one of the parents need to be on every campout to ensure their son has an exciting, safe, time. And they want to find out who is organizing the events to make sure it's done right. And, they never volunteer. Teaching the adults seems to be a lot harder than teaching the scouts.[/quote'] Give that parent a volunteer application form and send em to training. Harharharhar

[Stosh]

I'm not sure what this argument is about' date=' but it's all relative. I got an irate email today that included the line "this boy led troop idea is fine, but ..." and it went on to describe how brilliant their child is and how one of the parents need to be on every campout to ensure their son has an exciting, safe, time. And they want to find out who is organizing the events to make sure it's done right. And, they never volunteer. Teaching the adults seems to be a lot harder than teaching the scouts.[/quote']

 

Yes, MattR, you have identified the one problem I consistently have in my troops. The parents cause more problems than the boys do!. My boys generally do a good job on running their patrols. The SPL/ASPL combo do well in fine tuning the PL's. The Scouters pretty much are in the wings keeping an eye on things.

 

But the Parents? OMG, what a pain in the butt! I try to get a good CC to handle the parents. That frees the SM and ASM's up to deal with the boys. One of my favorite CC's once asked a parent flat out in front of everyone, "Do you want your boy to grow up or not?" When they answered, "Of course we do." He then said, "Well, then quit complaining and start helping." .... they did and things went well after that.

 

What happens in today's social culture is that children are held back from having to grow up, some until well into their 20's. In other cultures, teen-aged youth are considered full adults. Residual Coming of Age ceremonies, (confirmation, bar mittzvah, etc.) are all held in the early teen years for a reason. This delayed adulthood has well conditioned our "youth" to the point where many find it very difficult to truly function as an adult.

 

This is where I consistently run into problems with even other scouters. By the time my boys are 13, they should be able to fully function as an adult. In other cultures they do, why not here? .... because parents and scouters really don't expect and often times don't want them to.

 

The other side of the coin is that when these boys do get to that level at an early age, they are a threat to their parents who still treat them like children even when they are functioning as an adult. Parents don't always know what to do with them at this point.

 

Stosh

[DuctTape]

I recall as a scout our patrol was packing up all our gear to head out for a camping trip. the food was all bought and was sitting next to the tents, cooksets, etc... when we got to camp, we setup our tents (in the dark) and started a small fire to make cocoa and eat hot dogs. The cocoa and dogs were nowhere to be found. We ate some gorp which we all packed anyway. the next AM, the breakfast foods were also missing, as was lunch, dinner, etc... We ate our gorp. when we got back home, the bags of food were sitting right where we left them in the church basement. Years later, my SM told me one of the dads saw the food and was going to put it into his car. The SM told the dad to leave it, as it was our responsibility and we might be hungry but we wouldn't die of starvation. Plus we would learn something. He was right. This only happened once, and we told the story all the time. Others learned from our mistake.

[Stosh]

I recall as a scout our patrol was packing up all our gear to head out for a camping trip. the food was all bought and was sitting next to the tents' date=' cooksets, etc... when we got to camp, we setup our tents (in the dark) and started a small fire to make cocoa and eat hot dogs. The cocoa and dogs were nowhere to be found. We ate some gorp which we all packed anyway. the next AM, the breakfast foods were also missing, as was lunch, dinner, etc... We ate our gorp. when we got back home, the bags of food were sitting right where we left them in the church basement. Years later, my SM told me one of the dads saw the food and was going to put it into his car. The SM told the dad to leave it, as it was our responsibility and we might be hungry but we wouldn't die of starvation. Plus we would learn something. He was right. This only happened once, and we told the story all the time. Others learned from our mistake. [/quote']

 

As it should be... Well done!

 

Stosh