perdidochas Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 As a non christian this terrifies me. Why? Duty to God is a very personal thing, and honestly, I don't think there is a right/wrong answer, but rather it's a participation grade. In other words, the SM should just be ensuring that the scout is thinking and doing whatever the Scout feels his duty to God is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renax127 Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Why should it; especially since we really do not know what the guidelines may be? But, Scouting is not Christian, nor have I seen any indication that the "duty to God" element would suddenly be focused on Christianity. Such personal insecurity is more something to fear it seems to me. Well on another Scout group I'm in one gentleman stated plainly that if you did not believe in the Christian GOD then you couldn't be a couldn't be a scout. Since the oath states "Duty to GOD" you have to worship GOD, never mind that the BSA says otherwise. Now do I think that's going to be wide spread, no but it will happen. And considering that non-Christian are often ignored or made to feel unwanted of course we should be concerned. For instance I was at a Camporee recently where the Sunday program was flag raising then immediately having everyone attend a "Scouts Own" then right back to lowering the flag and closing the camp. It certainly was expect that you would attend even if it technically wasn't "required". It was also a typical Christian service, prayers to GOD, reading from the bible, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 How can a Buddhist comply ?!? Or can a Hindu pick all the gods or can they pick one ? As to how I a non Christian can feel threatened by this... I was at a youth baptist camp as a kid. It's 15. My friend invited me. As they where talking about satanic backwards masking and how evil rock and roll was... I raise my hand. I will never forget this. "If the devil has as much power as you say that he can put this on a record and you will be immediately be affected. Doesn't god have more power and give you the will to ignore it. Even if it does exist?" Two adult speakers one female one male The female takes the mic. "Jim I believe that child is with the devil" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 You don't think a evangelical scoutmaster could take the position that now with this new reg. any scout that doesn't follow my faith is now not morally straight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 I just do not see it happening anymore than it may already. And as always, individuals may find a unit with which they are more comfortable if they choose to. But again, maybe the new guidelines will actually be written to try and mitigate these very issues. Until we see them, it is simply a non issue. There are over the top people in every group environment, and you can learn to cope or find a more welcoming group; or you can work within the group to fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I just do not see it happening anymore than it may already. And as always' date=' individuals may find a unit with which they are more comfortable if they choose to. But again, maybe the new guidelines will actually be written to try and mitigate these very issues. Until we see them, it is simply a non issue. There are over the top people in every group environment, and you can learn to cope or find a more welcoming group; or you can work within the group to fix the problem. [/quote'] And what problem does introducing this language fix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 You don't think a evangelical scoutmaster could take the position that now with this new reg. any scout that doesn't follow my faith is now not morally straight? No, How can a Buddhist comply ?!? Or can a Hindu pick all the gods or can they pick one ? As to how I a non Christian can feel threatened by this... I was at a youth baptist camp as a kid. It's 15. My friend invited me. As they where talking about satanic backwards masking and how evil rock and roll was... I raise my hand. I will never forget this. "If the devil has as much power as you say that he can put this on a record and you will be immediately be affected. Doesn't god have more power and give you the will to ignore it. Even if it does exist?" Two adult speakers one female one male The female takes the mic. "Jim I believe that child is with the devil" a. B.S.A. supporrts the religious awards of Buddhists, Hindus, and other religions that lack a Christian sort of "God." - or any God at all. b. I was mugged at knifepoint once in a city. Does that mean every city endorses mugging? c. We have not seen the actual laqnguage yet. Plenty of time to "view with alarm" when you know what is to be viewed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutergipper Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 I've had a Buddhist Eagle Scout come through my Troop. We discussed his relationship with his religion. No big deal. Anyone who is asking questions about pieces of the Oath or Law without researching additional information about each point - both within BSA guidelines and outside - is doing it wrong. For me, the question is: how seriously will the District Eagle Boards take this? The question about a Scout's relationship to God is always asked at Eagle Boards in my District. The only answer that can currently get you in trouble is "I'm an Atheist. I don't believe in God." Otherwise it's just one more opportunity for the Scout to explore what he thinks and practice expressing it. Depending on what the new guidelines say, there may be other answers that are not sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Why do I think that those you are not opposed to this and see it as not a big deal are not in a religious minority? Therefore not a problem for them. Will agnostic scouts be denied rank? This is a terrible idea. Again what problem does this solve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 When is any of this solving any problems? Or could it mean nothing more than confirming what the scout is talking about when he says "On my honor...." Only those who have no intention of honoring their word have something to worry about. Has been that way since the inception of scouting, nothing's changed. Hmmm... how does one discern one's moral character without asking a few questions. So what duty does one do for Country when they aren't even old enough to vote, can't serve on a jury, run for office, serve in the military, etc. Is the SM supposed to hold a scout back because of this? What if the scout said he had no intention of ever voting, would rather sit in jail than serve on a jury, and would skip country if he were ever drafted? How is this any different than the boy who says he doesn't need a god because his moral code consists of staying one step ahead of the Law? And these boys can become Eagles.... Like I said, when is any of this solving any problems? Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st0ut717 Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 So I guess it's me alone thinking that this is a mistake and will ostrify scouts and the rest are fully on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutergipper Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 So I guess it's me alone thinking that this is a mistake and will ostrify scouts and the rest are fully on board. You do seem pretty paranoid about it. The paranoia could be justified if you had seen other examples where BSA acted in this manner, but it appears it's a bad personal experience with a religious group that's driving it instead. You seem very fixated on your "non-Christian" status and a little uncomfortable with it as well. These days, one seems more likely to be persecuted if they are Christian than non-Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdidochas Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 You don't think a evangelical scoutmaster could take the position that now with this new reg. any scout that doesn't follow my faith is now not morally straight? I think an evangelical scoutmaster would already be doing this, and would probably run out non-Christians anyway (whether purposefully or not). Also, IMHO, most of the more vocally evangelicals probably are in Trail's Life now.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdidochas Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Why do I think that those you are not opposed to this and see it as not a big deal are not in a religious minority? Therefore not a problem for them. Will agnostic scouts be denied rank? This is a terrible idea. Again what problem does this solve? Depends on your definition of agnostic...... I don't see how an agnostic could acknowledge a duty to God--but I know I could be wrong on this, I just can't see it myself based on my view of agnostics (having been raised by an agnostic father/Catholic mother). I can, however, see how other non-Christian religions could acknowledge a duty to God. I grew up as part of a religious minority--a Catholic in the Southeast in one of the two dioceses in the U.S. that have the least number of Catholics per capita in the U.S. I understand all of that. I don't see how this will be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Care to back up that claim that Christians are more likely to be persecuted than non-Christians without using an example of a government worker, including government school employees, being told to obey the Constitution? How many Christians were harrassed or killed after 911 because they were Christians? I read quite a few newspaper reports of Muslims and Sikhs that were harrased, with some even killed, in the days after 911 but not a single report of a Christian being killed. Since 911, I've read a lot of articles about permits being denied to build Mosques but none about permits being denied to Christian churches. I've heard and read those claims before, that Christians are being persecuted in the US - and so far, all the claims I've read about are about teachers and coaches being told that they can't lead students in prayer (and no, they can't - not if they work for government schools - that's not persecution, that's following the law), or about anti-abortion, or anti-same sex marriage, or Westboro Baptists protestors being harrassed (take it up with your fellow Christians, they're the ones counter-protesting), or Christian business owners that don't get to discriminate against people they don't like (again, thats not persecution, thats following the laws). Trust me, st0ut is not alone in having a poor experience with Scouters that have taken the Duty to God portion way too personally. I was initially denied my Eagle Scout rank because members of my Board of Review refused to accept my religion as legitimate. Council overruled that BOR, over the strenuous objections and threats to quit of those members. I suppose some might argue that their never being allowed to serve on an Eagle Scout BOR again was persecution of Christians - I would argue that it was justifiable elimination of ignorance from the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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