Leadership training that worked

[MattR]

This weekend we had a leadership training campout that worked great. At the campfire on Saturday night, which was the only time we talked about leadership for more than a few minutes, the scouts were enthusiastic about leading and said they now understand what the PL is supposed to do and how the patrols are supposed to work. The light came on.

 

Thanks to Eagledad and jblake47 for a couple of ideas I based everything on and everyone else that joined in on those discussions. I made the weekend fun and limited the ideas I wanted to get across to them. The main, fun activities were long sessions of shotgun and rock climbing. Around that were a bunch of challenges and competition based on scout skills that they had to complete in order to get to the fun activities (orienteering, blind folded knot relay, canoeing, fire building, and cooking over a fire. I crammed in as much as I could to force them to work as a team There were two patrols and they weren't allowed to have a patrol leader. They were given a schedule of exactly what they were going to do so they could prepare. Several times before the campout they were told to take care of their patrol, work as a team, and when they didn't know what to do, to ask their patrol mates "how can I help." I warned them that if they didn't do these things they were likely to be miserable, argue, and miss out on the fun. Since they've all been there before they believed me. They started with the orienteering course on Friday night, and got to camp after dark. The next morning they got up at 6 because they did not want to miss anything. Anyway, they went clean through until about 8:30 Saturday night except for a 2 hour free time session in the late afternoon.

 

​Given all that, there were some comments at the campfire (the only time for reflection) that just blew me away. The scouts said this was the best campout they'd been on, so I asked why. One scout said they were never rushed and had plenty of time to do things. Given that the point was to rush them I was wondering what I did wrong until several scouts said everything ran so smoothly. They were working as a team. They got up at 6 because they didn't want to miss out on anything but they were done by 7 and flags weren't until 8, so they had plenty of time to screw around. They also really enjoyed having more than 2 hours to do something fun. I don't think they will ever want to go to a camporee again where the standard activity is 5 minutes before they move to the next station.

 

Another scout said it was so much fun because "we didn't do scout stuff." I responded with: shotgun, rock climbing, orienteering, knots, canoeing, fire building and cooking over a fire is not scout stuff? He said, no, that stuff is all fun, but we never sat in a classroom or had check boxes marked off. Implied in this is that I didn't stand up front and blather on about leadership acronyms. One scout said he liked the challenges, especially the implied one from me that they might not be able to work as a team.

 

​Now we have to work on getting the whole troop to do this. We talked a long time about that.

[qwazse]

Not fair! You skipped "forming", "storming", and "norming"!

[Sentinel947]

That is really good MattR! Glad to see the light come on for your Scouts!

[koolaidman]

MattR,

 

Congratulations on a successful weekend. Could you share your schedule/syllabus if I send you my email address in a PM?

 

 

[Stosh]

Kinda scary in a good way! It always reminds me of wiring a new house with the electricity turned on. Never know when or who's going to light up and shine, but it's gonna happen.

 

Congrats to your boys, now all one needs to do is reinforce what they are already doing.

 

So, how much direction did you have to give them, mentor them, ???? Probably no where near what you thought. Lay out the challenge and let them have it. This is one of the surprises I found when I started teaching leadership rather than just management. You teach leadership, they'll figure out the management on their own.

 

Well done,

 

Stosh

[scoutergipper]

I'd love to see more specific details on the challenges you set, the schedule and so forth. We are pretty aggressively pursuing new leadership training ideas for our Troop.

[MattR]

koolaidman and scoutgipper, this is what I did. If it helps you out then I'll call it a good deed for the day and hopefully you can share what went right and wrong if you use something similar.

 

About a month ago I told the scouts we were going to have a high adventure weekend with as many fun events as we can do at our council camp but they were going to plan it. And, BTW, we'd also be doing some leadership training. In hindsight we needed some adults that knew the answers and people to call for shotgun and climbing. We didn't so for those we had adults help (a lot.) Anyway, we had mountain biking and canoeing as backups to shotgun and rock climbing. We dropped the mountain biking and kept the canoeing as a backup in case it rained and the rocks were wet to climb on.

 

We had a meeting two weeks ago with the interested scouts (the requirement was they be first class). I gave them the schedule and told them to organize themselves into two patrols with no patrol leaders. This is where I started the mantra of take care of your people, enthusiasm, and teamwork. In hindsight I'd replace teamwork with "How can I help." They made duty rosters that included covering skills for different challenges ("you need to know how to tie a bowline while blind folded"). I asked them to have each patrol's QM tell me what gear they needed. They also needed a flag and patrol name.

 

​ Not having patrol leaders was huge. The previous mantra was, I'm not PL, so I don't have to be responsible.

 

​The schedule was get to camp at 5:30 but be dropped off about a half mile from camp with a map and a simple compass course to find a bag full of sugary stuff. Hindsight: make the bag a very bright color. Each patrol got a different map. Once they got to camp they set up camp and we had a five minute teaching moment about the difference between being the boss and being a leader. Saturday morning they were required to cook something for breakfast, be cleaned up and at flags by 8am with their lunches ready (lunch at the lake). At 8:05 we had a blind folded knot relay and the winner got to choose whether they did shotgun or climbing first. The first event was from 9 to 11:30. Lunch was at noon and we had a canoe competition at 12:30 (get your patrol across the lake in one canoe but only 3 people can be in a canoe at a time.) At 1 pm they did the other major event. From 3;30 to 5:30 they had free but at 5:30 we started the fire building competition (boil a cup of soapy water in a tin can). They had to cook over a fire. Campfire at 7pm and each patrol needed a skit. After skits was the only reflection of the day.

 

​What actually happened: One patrol did not give me a gear list. I brought their gear but charged them $5/scout to get it (money went to the troop). We talked about looking out for each other and how things go wrong. We also talked about how the adults should not be the default fix it people. I was very explicit that I wanted them to learn from their mistakes and that I wasn't trying to punish them. They all took it well. We got to camp late and didn't start orienteering until 6:30, dusk is 7:45. My biggest fear was with one patrol. Their path was supposed to take them East of a very rocky outcropping. If they went to the West then they'd end up in steep terrain over a river. Not good in the dark. I did go looking for them, never found them, but they were fine and happy as could be once they found the candy. In the morning, although both patrols were done way early, they still missed flags at 8:00. One scout showed up at 8:02. I asked him what he was supposed to concentrate on and he said take care of his patrol. So I asked where his patrol was supposed to be at 8:00 and he said flags. So I looked at him and raised an eye brow. He jumped up shouting and ran back to his camp. Both patrols were at flags at 8:05. I gave them some grief about it. The knots went much faster than I thought so that should have been something harder. The climbing and shotgun was much better than what they'd get at summer camp so they loved it. Canoeing was a hoot. They'd have 3 people all paddling on the same side and they weren't turning. So they just sat in the water trying to figure it out. By the time they got to the fire building they were on top of the schedule. In fact I had to ask for a delay on the campfire since I was late with a dutch oven. I just heard them laughing and having a great time. Music to my ears.

 

​To answer your question, Stosh, mentoring occurred at the parking lot and morning flags. So not very often. The scouts did say the schedule I gave every one of them helped a lot. I never thought about that but if the PL is the only one with a schedule then the rest are going to be clueless. I also felt like an idiot of a SM at times. The scouts have no idea what teamwork means. Even those on sports teams are just doing as the coach tells them. So when we put them in a team environment they fail. Duh. Now the big question is how to get the rest of the troop up to speed.

 

One last observation is that the two patrols had scouts from 13 to 17 years old and they did great together. I asked them about having single age patrols and they said no. But they are leery of new/immature scouts. i.e., they're happy with anyone that understands teamwork but new scouts aren't mature enough. If I can figure out how to have a new scout patrol long enough for the scouts to mature it might solve a bunch of problems.

[Stosh]

MattR, Want to do this for the troop? Take your younger boys and do the same thing, Once your 11-12 year-olds understand what your 14+ year-olds now know, you're 3 years ahead of the game. Yes, they are going to struggle a lot more, but they'll have a really good idea what high adventure is all about and what they have coming their way down the road and how quickly they'll get there if they know how the leadership game works. Don't under estimate the boys just because of their age.

 

What you accomplished was basically C.O.P.E. on steroids.

 

I have a new troop of 11 year-olds. We are doing the GBB training right now and mentioned that the QM was responsible for equipment and that if they were going to ever get through the TF requirement dealing with physical fitness, they were going to need a tape measure and stop watch. 3 of the 6 boys came with a tape measure and stopwatch app on their cell phone to the meeting last night. Some of these younger boys haven't learned the the negative attitudes of the older boys and are more open to getting on track correctly from the beginning.

 

"One last observation is that the two patrols had scouts from 13 to 17 years old and they did great together. I asked them about having single age patrols and they said no. But they are leery of new/immature scouts. i.e., they're happy with anyone that understands teamwork but new scouts aren't mature enough. If I can figure out how to have a new scout patrol long enough for the scouts to mature it might solve a bunch of problems."

 

This is a conclusion that is based on a false premise!!! NEVER underestimate the younger boys. It's not an issue of maturity, it's an issue of opportunity and learning skills. I often times seem more "maturity" in my 11 year-olds than I see in a lot of 16 year-olds.

 

Once your NSP has an opportunity (earlier the better) like you have described for your older boys, the quicker the older boys will want to take them into their patrols if one wishes to do so. Otherwise, don't be surprised that by working together in team leadership, they may not want to join up with the older patrols. It's their call! What you found out is that the group that bonds with team leadership don't really like the disruption of reorganizing and tend to gradually move towards age-based because of it. Once group dynamics get established, they tend to stay that way.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

This is a conclusion that is based on a false premise!!! NEVER underestimate the younger boys. It's not an issue of maturity' date=' it's an issue of opportunity and learning skills. I often times seem more "maturity" in my 11 year-olds than I see in a lot of 16 year-olds. :)Stosh[/quote']

 

My experience is very different. New scouts are very immature compared to the rest of the scouts to say the least because until their first day in the troop, new scouts have only known a regimented life where almost every adult they have come into contact with over their lifetime has told them how to talk, walk, eat, think and behave. A boy run troop is their first true experience with the expectation of independent actions and decision making. As a result the new guys go nuts pushing every barrier expected of them. I call it getting high on independence.The older scouts are constantly redirecting (redirecting?) new scouts to follow the troop protocols, rules and general good manners. They tend to dread the first three months working with new scouts because it is like herding cats. For folks who think boys enjoy chaos, just ask older scouts about the chaos of new scouts.

 

It’s a big problem though, the BSA loses more boys in their first six months with a troop than any other age in the program. While independence is a lot of fun at first for new scouts, they quickly find that the discipline of independience is hard work and putting the trust of their safety with scouts instead of adults is pretty scary. Troops have to learn how to develop their new scouts confidence quickly before the boy looses interest. I found that if a troop still has a scout after summer camp (basically 6 months), they will likely havehim for several years. How to do that is a good discussion on its own.

 

And actually learning how to work with new scouts is good experience for older scouts (12 on up in this case) so that they learn the lifeskills of patience, and being clear about expectations and the consequence of not following those expectation. But mostly the skill of patience. LOL

 

What the troop culture has to learn is that there are stages to growing and they need to expect those stages and learn how to deal with it. The stages aren’t near as difficult with mixed age patrols as same age patrols because of the number of role models in mixed age patrols. New scout patrols require a lot of patience because the cats, I mean immature scouts, outnumbers the mentors and role models.

 

Barry

 

[Stosh]

I agree with the idea that new scouts is like herding cats, and I don't have a problem with that. But how long that lasts depends on how one reacts to it.

 

I had a shakedown weekend before summer camp with nothing but 11 year-olds. They couldn't get a fire started and problems with the food prep, but they did choose wisely, a ham and cheese sandwich is just as good as a grilled ham and cheese.

 

All in all they were not focused, they didn't work as a team and complained about everything. We did the AAR at our meeting on Monday following the weekend. They aired their complaints and had a free-for-all for the first 15 minutes. I gave them the time to vent and then asked, who's fault was it? They unanimously said it was their fault and then the second question, "What are you going to do about it for next time.?" Once they realized the independence meant personal responsibility as well, they buckled down and got to work.

 

They were 300' away from the adults at summer camp, still had trouble with cooking, but by the end of the week were doing fairly well.

 

Camporee is coming up next month, they have the menu planned, the equipment is being organized now, they are heavy into popcorn sales to get money for more equipment, and are doing just fine. As a matter of fact even without older boys, they are doing just fine on their own. Like MattR's boys, once they get over the initial shock, they quickly shift into survival mode and figure it out rather quickly and it has nothing to do with maturity. Just like Matt's boys, they learned. Well an 11 year old can learn too, he doesn't need to wait until he's 14. That's all I'm saying. To think they are too immature to do so at a younger age in my experience isn't generally true. The ideas Matt identified, take care of your boys, what can I do to help, etc. are all implemented from day 1 in the NSP. I'm thinking that because they all learn to work together right from the beginning, they like to stay together as a group and don't dissolve the NSP at the end of the first year.

 

Stosh

[MattR]

Stosh, I understand what you mean by let the new scouts do this, but some of the 13 year olds could barely hold up the shotgun. We weren't allowed to mix shell size so we couldn't go for a smaller gun.

 

Considering that the scout that said he now understands the PL's job was one of the troop guides, I must admit I failed with the last new scout patrol. The troop guides probably just acted as den leaders so nobody progressed and the troop guides suffered. There's a project.

 

When it comes to mixed vs fixed aged patrols there seem to be lots of tradeoffs. When a mixed aged patrol works it is great to see, but when it doesn't work it's ugly or scouts drop. The problem is almost always some scout doesn't have enough friends the right age. And that doesn't always mean the same age. How about this: Have a NSP for a year, just like the BSA says, and focus on teamwork and enough skills so at the end they could be on their own. Then let them go where they want. If they decide they made a mistake, let them move. Some patrols will mix, some won't, and some will stay within an age range.

[boomerscout]

It isn't always a question of emotional maturity. It's more a question of familiarity with the new environment. Most of these young city dudes don't know anything about firebuilding, using a compass, tying proper knots, cooking, pitching a tent and so on. If you overload anyone with tasks they can't do, they will run and hide, go catatonic or leave Scouting all together.

 

Our NSP is adult led by some very patient Scouters (with a few guides as helpers). A Scout stays in the NSP until he earns Tenderfoot; he then joins a "real" patrol. Our patrols are frequently in flux - some by same grade in school (common ground), some by same geographic area, some by what ever is mystifying. Since they are required to buy their own patrol emblems every time they change it's not that much of a problem. We generally run five patrols plus the NSPs

[Eagledad]

Stosh' date='How about this: Have a NSP for a year, just like the BSA says, and focus on teamwork and enough skills so at the end they could be on their own. Then let them go where they want. If they decide they made a mistake, let them move. Some patrols will mix, some won't, and some will stay within an age range.[/quote']

 

Here is my opinion based from a lot experience. I’m not wanting to get in the Mixed vs. Age Base in this reply, so just skip to that we’ve determined that mixed age patrols was best for us. There is no reason for not mixing new scouts into existing mixed patrols unless the patrol dynamics is mess up enough that the patrol is basically starting over. As discussed earlier, new scouts require a lot of guidance and it doubles for every new scout added. After a few years, we determined that two was the maximum number of new scouts that could be added to a mixed age patrol without disrupting patrol dynamics. So, if the number of new scouts out numbers the patrols to where more than two new scouts has to be added to the patrols, then we went to the NSP.

 

So when were forced to use the NSPs, we found that new scout growth was pretty good for about six months using two older scouts as their leaders. I tried and didn’t like the idea of using new scouts as patrol leaders, but that is a different subject. Any we found that the new scouts basically got up to speed to where they were productive in about six months time. So that is when we mixed them into the mixed age patrols, unless they wanted to stay together, but that never happened.

 

Someone is probably wondering how a patrol of friends the same age would be willing to break up into two scouts each. After a few years of trying different methods for dispersing scouts into the patrols, we found that most scouts really only want one friend with them. Rarely, but sometimes it may be two, but we never more than that.

 

We did use to leave the NSPs together for a year before moving them into mixed age patrols, but we found that the new scouts became rather bored after six months because they didn’t know enough skills to grow or mature. Since role modeling is the major form of growth, a troop needs to keep sending the NSP role models from outside for continued growth. For us, maximum performance growth worked when we mixed the new scouts into the patrols around six months or after summer camp.

 

About three months into their NSP experience, we told the new scouts to start watching and shopping for the patrol they would eventually join. At the same time the patrols would shop for new scouts. At about the time we were ready to move the new scouts, most of the new scouts and patrols had already arranged who was going where. The scouts could transfer early if they wanted.

 

Barry

 

[Stosh]

MattR, feel free to adapt the fun event to a more appropriate activity. I agree, the shotguns might be a bit overwhelming. Archery or .22's/.177 pellet guns might do just as well. The goal should be something they would enjoy, but the real focus is on the leadership challenges that get them there.

 

BoomerScout: My 11 year old boys didn't know anything about fire building, setting up tents, cooking, tying knots, or anything else. But they did have their books they could research and they were all allowed to ask adults to demonstrate any skill they were having difficulty with. The adults are instructed in demonstrating skills rather than doing the work. They went off to summer camp and when they got there the BSA wall tents were all neatly rolled up and piled on the picnic table. They asked me how to set up the tent. We walked through it and they got the first tent all set up and ready for the week. I never touched the tent, stake or rope in the whole process. Once they got the first one up, they went over and set up the other two on their own. By Tuesday they were having difficulty with their fire starting for meals and asked for instruction on that. I helped them get the fire going and I didn't touch the stove, the wood or the match. From then on things went a lot smoother with the meals. I find the boys usually only ask if they have struggled for some time on their own and when they come and ask for help, I know they're really stumped.

 

I also spend time observing the boys as to how they are doing. If they are doing it in an inefficient way, I mentally record it, but I don't step in and fix anything. Observing is just that observing. I keep notes that if the boys bring the subject up during the AAR, I can offer up some non-binding suggestions/observations that might benefit them. My advice is always just optional.

 

My ASM was not on the same page as me when we went off to summer camp and was quite "concerned" about my approach. Yet by the end of the week she was totally on board. What MattR experienced in a weekend with the older boys, I got some very positive progress with my younger boys over the course of summer camp. But Matt could measure progress in hours. It took younger boys days, but some SM's prolong the process out by not letting the boys lead that they measure progress in years. That's unfortunate.

 

What is kinda nice to notice is that being a new troop, I have emphasized that all boys are trained as PL's because if the troop grows all the current boys are going to need to step up to the leadership positions in the next few years. One of the boys flat out identified the problem... that means the patrol is going to have to break up and as soon as he said it, the discussion stopped and the room got silent. Even after just a few months, the bonding had been happening in the struggles and learning they had experienced. I'll let them think about that for a while, but they still hold the trump card. THEY decide who's in the patrol. If they teach other boys to be PL, they won't have to break up their patrol. Boys figure this stuff out a lot quicker than one gives them credit for.

 

Stosh

 

[MattR]

Barry, we do something similar, six months with two troop guides and then split them up. We don't do the shopping part and that sounds much better. But getting to your growth theme, I have a couple of 13 year olds that are ready to be PL and some 16 year olds that shouldn't be PL or just need a break. But I don't want to let a high school drama case in with a 13 year old PL. It would probably be easier on the young PL if he is one of the older scouts or the older scout is an exceptional scout that understands the dynamics. This likely means there are some youngish patrols and some patrols that are either completely mixed or the higher age range. Did you have something like this?

 

I'd like to let the scouts figure out their own patrols and give them the opportunity to fix their mistakes. If there's a younger patrol that likes camporees and some scout grows to the point where the rock climbing/shotgun patrol looks like more of a challenge then he can try and move up. Or maybe there's a patrol that likes doing OA stuff. I suppose this is like the venture patrol idea but my troop had one once and it was a disaster. Talk about a group of lazy kids. But what if the scouts get an opportunity for more growth at a younger age so when they're older they can create a calendar of more challenging events. There'd be a NSP, then the "camporee" patrols and finally the patrols where the dads can barely keep up. Isn't that the type of growth you're talking about?