Moving to a Patrol Method Troop.

[Sentinel947]

Just to get a little background I'm going to reference an old thread. http://www.scouter.com/forum/open-discussion-program/408554-troop-training-ilst

 

A few quick details. I'm an Assistant Scoutmaster. My troop is around 70 Scouts. We camp at least once a month. I'm entering my 10th year as either a Scout or Scouter all with this current Troop.

 

In that thread I talked about how I volunteered to help my troop put on a leadership training weekend. When I was a scout we had used a similar program to the one discussed above.

The camping trip was a success and the feedback from the Scouts was positive.

 

Now a few months later the Scoutmaster and I have finally sat down and discussed the trip. Things are a little off kilter in my troop, and I believe it's because of the lack of our usage of the patrol method. For example: next month is a council wide camporee. We only have 40 of 70 boys going. Only 6 of the 40 are over the age of 14. The other adults seem to be on board that something needs to be changed.

 

The Scouts seem enthusiastic about the greater autonomy and flexibility the Patrol Method brings over the "Troop Method" (finger quotes for emphasis), but I realize they really don't understand how it works in practice, because they've only experienced camping by the Patrol method in our Leadership Training Weekend (which was really a weekend to convince the skeptical)

 

Has anybody been part of a troop that didn't use the patrol method and made this transition? Or took over a troop that made this transition?

 

As far as I see my role in this transition is to keep Adults from backsliding, and help the Scouts learn how to run the patrol method themselves. A crucial bit is getting the SPL who is very powerful in my troop to be willing to delegate authority down the chain to the Patrol Leaders.

 

So many variables and so many things to learn, any advice would be welcome.

 

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

[Stosh]

"As far as I see my role in this transition is to keep Adults from backsliding, and help the Scouts learn how to run the patrol method themselves. A crucial bit is getting the SPL who is very powerful in my troop to be willing to delegate authority down the chain to the Patrol Leaders."

 

This is where I would start. First of all one person can't run a program with 70 people. Even professionals can't do it. One is foolish if they think this is happening.

 

The first thing I would do is take all 70 boys put them in a room and when they have divided up in to groups of 6 to 8 boys and have selected one of them to be PL they can come out. That's your patrols. Then each PL is given total responsibility to run their patrol and nothing more. The SPL is to gather up as many ASPL's as possible from the older boys and they help the PL's and make sure they are successful.

 

If the helping needs more boys, like a QM, TG, Instructors, the SPL gathers those people into his cadre of people. Whatever it takes to have the PL's succeed with their patrols.

 

If one were to do this much, they would be well on their way to boy-led, patrol-method scouting.

 

Top down management doesn't work with that many boys. Obviously from the loss of older boys in the program, this has already been identified.

 

Stosh

[scoutergipper]

We're in this process right now, but we were "Troop method" primarily because 3 years ago we had 11 Scouts and 8 of them were 15 or older. Now we have 38 and 3 are 15 and none older than that. We have "eased" into full Patrol Method going whole hog only 18 months ago. We had problems that you won't face because you have older boys. The one we share is the Parents. "They're too young!" was the single greatest objection we faced which caused them to believe they had to helicopter. This was not allowed (one Parent was banned from campouts after washing her son's mess kit and various other transgressions). There's been a lot of grumbling, mostly out of my earshot, but it's a lot harder to claim a 14-year-old is "too young" in the same way you do about an 11-year-old. Your kids can do it. All kids can. Train 'em, trust 'em and let 'em lead.

[qwazse]

Getting 30 older boys to do anything in unison during fall sports season is nigh impossible. Think about it this way: if they were 4 patrols of tightly knit boys, at the PLC, three of them would report that they weren't going to the council camporee because they had commitments elsewhere (football Friday, soccer Saturday, helping with bonfire that evening, camping after the bonfire, maybe inviting their girlfriends to hang out, church picnic on Sunday). You'd say, "very well then as long as you aren't robbing liquor stores to buy drugs .... And [to the patrol that's camping independently] I'll gladly review your camp plan and make sure you have anything you need. Oh and if those girls really like to hike and camp, here's the number of a crew advisor you all should should call." Then thank the one patrol that decided to come to the camporee for their contribution to the troop and ask them what they would special for their post-taps cracker-barrel. Needless to say, if your SPL is very influential, you would be coaching him to have that attitude.

[mattman578]

Since I am new to scouting and not sure what the Patrol Method was I bought a book that really seemed to open my eyes to how well the Patrol method can work and there are some leadership yarns in it that seem to help you learn from other peoples mistakes and a really good quote from Will Rodgers

"There are three kinds of men; the ones that learn by reading: The few who learn by observation; The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence and find out for ourselves"

 

I told this to my Webelos parents as we were starting to implement the patrol method with them to help the transition and they got the point.

 

I also marked the good leadership yarns that I read to the parents every now and then when they start to intervene

 

I have included a copy to the link of the book I got

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041O9PUM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Eagledad]

It is important that you keep the adults from back sliding, but what is back sliding. The only way a dramatic change can happen is for the adults to want it to happen. And for them to want it to happen, they need to know what they want to happen. I’ve helped a few troops through this process and the first thing was getting the adults to identify just what they want. What is the vision of the patrol method the adults want to see from the scouts. If the adults are not of the same mind, they will eventually be confusing the scouts by opposing each other.

 

Also, if the adults don’t know where they are going, how will they know if the scouts are going in a positive direction? Boy run troops can look completely chaotic from the outside, so if you didn’t know what you were looking at, you might be incline to yell stop.

 

And it is OK for the adults to change a little bit as well. You might start out thinking new boy patrols is the way to go only to see that they don’t like to camp out because it’s not any fun. Something has to change. Age base patrols, mixed age patrols, which works better? Are the scouting growing, are they having fun?

 

I usually ask the troop to issue Patrol Leaders Handbooks and SPL Handbooks to the adults and scouts so that they all had the same program plan. Then the scouts are asked to run the program from the books with the adults observing. When the boys run into a kink in the road, they sit down and discuss it with the adults and together come up with a solution using the hand books as best they can for a guide. The books give the scouts independence from the adults, but also give the adults kind of a picture of what they can expect from the scouts.

 

Now whether or not you use those books for a different plan, it is very important “to start simpleâ€Â. I can promise you that the program you start with today will not be the program you see a year from now. A lot of changes will be made to reach your vision. Usually it’s the adjusting more than the adults.

 

I’m not really sure what you mean by patrol method, but that usually means to get each patrol to function independently. Basically the PL should be leading the patrol with as little input from outside the patrol as possible with the eventual goal of becoming completely independent.

 

One last thing that many adults don’t respect at the beginning of these kinds of changes, “The adults need to learn more faster than the scouts so as not to get in the scouts way.†The adults will find that challenge to be a lot of work at first. They need to evaluate if the patrols are progressing toward the vision or regressing. Does age based patrols encourage more growth or mixed age patrols? Why? What needs to change for better performance? I watched a troop lose 15 of its 30 new scouts in the first three months because the adults just weren’t ready for the troop to become that big. They tried to force the old program to work with triple the number. They had to evaluate where the program was failing and adjust to meet the needs of the scouts and to progress toward the vision.

 

If you have the will to see this through, you will reap the rewards of watching hundreds of boys growing into men of character and leaders of integrity. There is very little in life that tops that. You will love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[Sentinel947]

Mattman: I've read that book, it's excellent, I plan to lend my copy to the Scoutmaster this week.

 

Eagledad: that's a great point, I have to be sure that all the Scoutmasters are on the same page about what changes will happen. To define backsliding what I meant that they will see the inevitable chaos that the Patrol method is and want to return to a more comfortable troop centered model.

[qwazse]

... The one we share is the Parents. "They're too young!" was the single greatest objection we faced which caused them to believe they had to helicopter. This was not allowed (one Parent was banned from campouts after washing her son's mess kit and various other transgressions). ...

 

Yeah, convincing parents that you know the boys' limitations and have the good sense to pick a safe place for them to operate in real patrols is rough.

 

Parents have a really tough time letting go. I see it at sports too. Everyone wants to be the coach and captain, especially on the teams that have really good coaches and captains!

 

BTW ... you could have a crew of 14-15 y.o. venturers experiencing the same thing - even though, aside from the few hours of age-appropriate challenge, they're tasked with little more than what you would assign to your 12 year old scouts!

 

My line to parents (especially those whose sons don't have a POR): "Leadership stars now. Unless we squelch it."

[JoeBob]

Parents were only a problem for us when they first came up from Cubs. Troop meetings are much more chaotic than the Pack. I try to warn them before they come, "It's going to look crazy..."

 

I asked the PLC to divide our 40 boys into 3 patrols; large patrols if you read all the literature. They gave me aged based patrols that robbed the young boys of the experienced scouts. And the experienced scouts had no one to mentor. So the SPL and I divided the troop into homogeneous patrols. The older boys didn't like it, but came to accept that it was best for the troop.

 

My biggest mistake while converting to patrols was numbers. We usually have half or less of the troop attend camping trips. Lacrosse, football, marching band, theater, altar servers, etc. always created legitimate conflicts. With patrols of 12 active boys, we'd have camping patrols of 2 and 3 boys wondering why they had to be separated from their mates. So we'd abandon the patrol method based on making the camping groups realistic. Last month we re-divided into just 2 patrols. Now we should have enough boys in each group to adhere to their patrol structure when they're in the woods.

 

I hope.

[Stosh]

Parents were only a problem for us when they first came up from Cubs. Troop meetings are much more chaotic than the Pack. I try to warn them before they come, "It's going to look crazy..."

 

I asked the PLC to divide our 40 boys into 3 patrols; large patrols if you read all the literature. They gave me aged based patrols that robbed the young boys of the experienced scouts. And the experienced scouts had no one to mentor. So the SPL and I divided the troop into homogeneous patrols. The older boys didn't like it, but came to accept that it was best for the troop.

 

The "solution" also robbed the younger boys an opportunity to "pee on the fence". All the older boys take over as leaders and the younger potential "leaders" just sit back and go along for the ride instead of leading their peers. Oh, sure, someday they will be older and expected to lead, but they won't have had any experience. They get to start from scratch. I guess I would rather have my 11 year olds starting from scratch than my 13 year olds.

 

I have also noticed that there are those who never lead, never get a chance to lead, get up in the ranks/age and are bored enough that all they want to do is get their Eagle and get out.

 

The older boys didn't like it? Of course not. But in this day and age, what's good for the troop isn't always what's good for the scout. They will thus start looking for alternative programs that answer their needs, and not the groups.

 

There are a lot of little things we do to discourage our older boys thinking that we are doing them a favor when in fact we are really interested in our own concerns, not theirs.

 

My biggest mistake while converting to patrols was numbers. We usually have half or less of the troop attend camping trips. Lacrosse, football, marching band, theater, altar servers, etc. always created legitimate conflicts. With patrols of 12 active boys, we'd have camping patrols of 2 and 3 boys wondering why they had to be separated from their mates. So we'd abandon the patrol method based on making the camping groups realistic. Last month we re-divided into just 2 patrols. Now we should have enough boys in each group to adhere to their patrol structure when they're in the woods.

 

I hope.

 

One can play the numbers game all day long and it doesn't address the real problem. I have had a lot of outings where only a couple of boys showed up as a patrol for an activity. So? That's their problem to solve, not the adults who panic, start putting patrols together, playing with the numbers, etc. and it all looks good for the activity and life is good. Except how much harm did stirring the pot do? The 4-5 boys that didn't show are reminded that the troop can get by without them. Their attendance is not all that important, we can always work around it. Tell that to older boys often enough and they'll start believing it, and then next thing you know, they are focused on their Eagle and the door.

 

There is a reason why Scout troops seem to lack older boys...... It's unfortunate that the troops don't know what those reasons are.

 

JoeBob, You now have enough boys in each group to adhere to their patrol structure when they're in the woods. Does that mean all the others are no longer important? Don't think for a moment that my comment isn't valid, I have had a lot of boys over the years express their feelings in exactly those words. Don't worry, Johnny, you can miss the camporee, we have it covered without you....

 

Stosh

[JoeBob]

We tried it for a 2 years with 3 12 person patrols. It didn't work.

 

And the older boys rarely stepped up to be patrol leaders. They figured out that being PL was work, and Mr. JB held them accountable for their patrol. Much easier to just lay back and enjoy the trips without any responsibility. (I once had a New Scout elected PL because no one else wanted to do it.) Sorry, the adult SM over-ruled that.

 

Trying to guilt boys into choosing Scouts over their other commitments doesn't work either. We're a heavily involved Catholic community school, and I'm glad to keep the boys interested in Scouting at all.

 

Dealing with reality here.

[scoutergipper]

Wow, that's a lot of drop-off on campouts.

 

Like Stosh, I've been discouraging mashing up Patrols artificially just to get the number up (although it's not as large a problem as you have). It's the PL's job to encourage his Scouts to attend campouts and to pull their weight in the Patrol.

[Stosh]

I've taken heat on the forum for promoting age based patrols, but if all the older boys are in their own patrol, one of them has to get off his butt and lead. Of course they're going to sit back and take a ride on the mixed patrols, they know they can dupe the young guys into doing the work.

 

Seriously? If they won't lift a finger to help the young guys in their own patrol, what makes one idealistically think they're going to lift a finger to help anyone in the troop? Force them? Yep, that'll get quality leadership for mentoring the young guys.

 

I hear your pain, it's difficult and every troop is different so there's no single dose of medicine that will fix your ills in your troop. Gonna have to figure it on a bit on your own. LOTS of dialog with the the boys should give you a fairly good idea of what is needed to make it work, but it's not going to all of a sudden be a exemplary patrol-method group with the snap of a finger. What I would do for the older boys is have the SPL assign them into the troop officer positions and then have the ASPL run that group as a "patrol" of their own. It should be the experienced boys that work with the patrol counterparts (mentor them) Troop QM works with the patrol QM's to make sure the equipment is there for them, etc. Troop Scribe works with the patrol scribes to keep up on the records and finances, etc.

 

I would have the SPL assign the older boys first to the troop positions, but if they won't do the work and function in that role, give it to a younger boy and put the older boy out to pasture so he can focus on his Eagle and leave, that's pretty much what he's interested in anyway.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

I've taken heat on the forum for promoting age based patrols' date='[/quote']

 

No trouble with your choice of age base stosh, different strokes for different folks. You don't catch heat for promoting aged based patrols, you catch heat for silly straw men analogies like:

 

Of course they're going to sit back and take a ride on the mixed patrols, they know they can dupe the young guys into doing the work.

 

Behavior is shaped by the culture. Of course there lazy scouts just like there are type "A" scouts in all aged based, mixed age patrol method troop method programs. But if the culture somewhat supports older scouts sluffing off the work to young scouts, that is what they will do, But do all troops do that? No of course not. My experience is that this kind of culture comes from an adult driven program because the adults drive the program leaving older scouts to just sit around. Which is also the reason I don't care for age based patrols. Scouts grow by watching others and when most of who they watch has the same experience as themselves, the adults have step in one way or another to push more growth.

 

But there is a different problem with old scouts when making dramatic troop program changes I didn't mention to Sentinel because I didn't want to throw a lot at him at once. But since the discussion was taking a tall tails route, I better add my experience.

 

Basic rule is that older scouts don't change. Pretty much the culture that a scout learns before puberty is set in after. I have yet to see a program successfully change a culture like going from troop method to patrol method with the older scouts buying in. Especially going from adult run to boy run. Change comes from the younger scouts. This has proven out to be so consistent that now I suggest to troop leaders plan at the beginning to split the program with the younger scouts functioning under the new program and leave the older scouts alone as best they can so they stay with the program. There is some value with the older scouts helping out as leaders, but in general, they will rebel and the adults will find them a drag on the program. Every set of leaders gives the older scouts a try and I’m all for that. If they can find a way of doing it, we all gain from the knowledge. But usually the adults eventually just go to the younger scouts to make the change.

 

Its due to our natural instinct. By nature we human learn most of our behavior by watching others around us until we reach puberty. Then after puberty we go into survival mode using what we learned. We are built that way to survive back before we had schools and teachers. We instinctivly watch our parents to learn how to be productive (or not) adults. Same goes with the troop culture, what a scout learns before age 14 he uses after age 14, good and bad.

 

"They know they can dupe the young guys!" For Pete sake Stosh, somebody might actually believe you.

 

Barry

 

[MattR]

I have a similarly sized troop. Today I received two irate emails from parents because something isn't going right. My response is to explain how the scouts can solve this problem on their own and that I'd be happy to coach them. Now I have two parents pissed off at me. Not only am I not solving their problem I'm proposing to do their job. Bad day. Everyone is right, boy led is chaotic. Two steps forward and one back.

 

Getting a dominating SPL to back off is certainly important and probably not nearly as hard as getting adults to understand. Just as hard, if not harder, is to get the PLs to step forward. They really are the crux of the program. One problem I see is they have never had responsibility for others before, not even for themselves. So this is a very new idea and, at least to start, you need some good scouts that are OK with something new and also have a good heart. Some scouts, no matter how bright, competitive, outgoing, or whatever, can't see past themselves. What I'm finding is that once the boys hit puberty they're beyond the squirmy phase and while the older scouts might have better focus, it depends more on their heart. Give me a 13 year old that cares about others over a 16 year old that is so competitive he can't see the other scouts in his patrol.

 

We have homogenized patrols, and we have to figure out how to support the 11 and 12 year olds, but after that I'm thinking let's encourage younger, good scouts to be PLs. A good 16 year old PL could do good things with a 13 year old that wants to learn. And a good 13 year old PL will do better than a 16 year old suffering from high school drama. This is similar to what Eagledad is saying about how older scouts won't change but I'm finding that boys that honestly care about others will move towards boy led more easily than the selfish kids, irrespective of age.

 

Another point is "boy led" is not a yes/no thing. There are different aspects of the troop and different levels of boy led.